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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: Home support for the alliance |
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I’ve been benging on Discovery, history, AHC WW 2 shows over the weekend and today. One thing that keeps popping up is the importance of England and through them America in supporting the effort.
Yes the resistance was important, but for them they seceded because of England’s SOE (Churchill’s shadow army) They gave the resistance a trained set of operators, specialized weapons (easily hidden and silenced) and explosives etc. Then there was the bomber support to HVTs highlighted by the resistance . Even targeted assassinations of key NAZI leaders and collaborators carried out by SOE troops or those trained by them explicitly for eliminating SS/Gestapo leaders.
Also, there is simply the amount of materials and equipment supplied by America that kept the allies (and the resistance) in the war even before America joined the war.
This isn’t just reflected in WW II, you can see the same from Korea and Vietnam (help from China and to a lesser extent Russia), Afghanistan fighting Russia (receiving weapons etc from US). And the list can go on
In reflection of that, for the Rebel Alliance to have a chance it HAS to be receiving support from somewhere. Yeah, it can on small scale be acquiring things (even capital scale war ships) at a local level. However, that only goes so far. There has to be some place providing all the munitions and material, a place to provide the critical heavy combat ship, some place for the alliance operators to receive specialized upgrade training, a place for a troop to rotate back to and get a moment or 3 of needed relaxation (or retreat to when being overwhelmed).
My question is … where, where in the SW universe is there a place that can provide that ‘home’ support? I admit I don’t know the EU very well, but everything I know points to everywhere being under the thumb of the empire. So where ????
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like they've left some room for GMs to add their own elements to the SWU. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14173
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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We had whole segments of Incom defect with the plans and prototypes for the Xwings. Some of sorosub did the same, and Mon cal lended its assistance after the alliance helped it throw off imperial rule.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Read the Intelligence chapter of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook for some ideas. A lot of Intel gathering for the Alliance occurs at the grassroots and Sector Force level (i.e. alliance members living among the local population), with SpecForce or starfighter units used in the manner you described (supporting local operations).
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Ninjaxenomorph
Lieutenant
Joined: 02 Jun 2014
Posts: 92
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| It's partially what made the Rebellion so unique; there wasn't a foreign force providing supplies, it was all black market and defectors. General Madine is a good example, he created both the Stormcommandos and the Rebel Specforces. |
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nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:18 am Post subject: |
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It might be better to think of the relationship between the Alliance and the Empire in more of Civil War terms than WWII terms (or the other conflicts you mentioned). Most of the Alliance's early personnel were just cast-offs from the Empire . . . people who were already officers in the Republic when it became the Empire or received military training in the Empire before later defecting. Although the Alliance and the Empire weren't as close to evenly matched as the Union and the Confederacy initially, the Alliance benefited from the extreme heavy-handedness of the Empire. So while the Alliance got assets like General Rieekan because of his regional loyalty to Alderaan (sort of like General Lee rejecting a senior appointment in the Union in favor of returning to serve his native Virginia), it also got assets like General Dodonna because the Empire basically drove him into the welcoming arms of the Alliance by ordering his assassination. These initial assets, coupled with the Alliance's general no-engagement policy, gave the movement the time it needed to start training its own operators and collect equipment.
I don't think the Alliance really ever had the type of home support you have in mind until much later because the very idea of having a "home" was antithetical to the Alliance's fundamental battle strategy: if you don't have the ships to stand and fight, how could you ever defend your home? As crmcneill put it, most of the Alliance's support was in the form of grassroots, small-scale support. Yes, there was a main Alliance fleet, but the majority of rebel activity across the galaxy manifested as local resistance groups, perhaps aided by trained Alliance operators, disrupting local Imperial operations. These local groups may have enjoyed local "home" support, but the main Alliance fleet/hq were mostly dependent on defectors and scavenging equipment early on. |
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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies
It may be cannon, but I don't like the idea of:
| Ninjaxenomorph wrote: |
It's partially what made the Rebellion so unique; there wasn't a foreign force providing supplies, it was all black market and defectors. General Madine is a good example, he created both the Stormcommandos and the Rebel Specforces. |
It just isn't realistic enough (and yes I know how silly that is when talking about a universe like SW, where the rules of reality are twisted beyond belief at times for the story). A group that resists a politically and militarily superior foe, without the needed support, will fail ... look at the Kurds in Iraq, the college protesters in Iran, Tiananmen square & China, etc.
Even nuclearwookiee's reference to the ACW helps feed into my point (but in reverse) The south had political clout in the beginning and a good military background, but did not receive the support they needed from Europe and were eventually ground down. This is despite the cream of the crop 'defecting' to the south at the start of the war & initial successes in the war. So that helps show that a group that is weaker must get support from somewhere to stay in the fight.
Even look at the AWI, we won battles & lost battles, and were to a point dominated by the British. However, the rebels stayed in the fight and eventually got support from the French and only then did the fighting turn around and we win our independence. Without France, despite amazing inspired leadership, troops willing to sacrifice for the cause, and local support (to a point,) eventually England would have ground down the rebellion and America would have never came into being.
Now, I'm not looking for a super power that is able to stand toe to toe with the empire. Like France was to England, America is (was) to Russia & China. I know that would void all of the SW background and take away from the Alliance's success.
| Naaman wrote: |
Sounds like they've left some room for GMs to add their own elements to the SWU.
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I guess I'm looking for any possible (even if fairly improbable) way that the Alliance is receiving support and where it is coming from that fills those elements.
Where is the chink in the armor of Imperial control that lets Incom, Sorosub, etc actually set up large scale production facilities. Any quasi believable narrative that will explain where they went to.
Even if it is 'just' the Empire does not have true control over outer rim sectors and the moff of those sectors are just paper tigers or positions without a real seat. However, if that is the case, it needs to be reflected in the home brew setting. Or, there are multiple worlds space stations outside the edge of the galaxy, or on the edge of the satellite galaxies around the main SW galaxy that the support comes from/rebels retreat to. Something anything that fills the support void ...
Even if it is grasping at straws , ... help me understand a good narrative that explains it ...
Oh yeah, CRM, thanks for pointing me to the Alliance source book. It has great fodder for background of characters and food for thought!
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Kytross
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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First off, some logistics: The Empire controls 1 million to 100 million worlds depending on your source of choice. In a galaxy with at least 100 BILLION stars, that's less than 1 percent of the stars in the galaxy. Unfortunately, this is a matter that most authors don't comprehend so they gloss over it. I am going to gloss over it too, though one day I'd love to have a steady group to explore a galaxy like this.
Now onto the narrative: Palpatine created a false crisis, raising up both the Republic and the Separatists to fight a civil war that would allow him to kill off the Jedi and crown himself Emperor. At the end of RotS he is the most powerful being in the galaxy with a fleet of warships bigger and more powerful than anything ever seen before.
Despite his power he didn't have the resources to station a cruiser at every planet, so he assembled sector fleets. How big was a sector fleet? In the Thrawn Trilogy it was only a handful of ships. Remember, Vader's Death Squadron was the largest fleet ever assembled in the history of the galaxy and it was only 39 ships at it's largest point.
Consequently a system that went into rebellion wasn't expecting swift retribution, they were expecting eventual retribution. Eventually the Empire would get there and stomp out the fire of rebellion. Eventually. Sector fleets could take hours to days to get to a rebellious planet. More than enough time to run. This applied even more to the Death Star. Want to rebel against the Empire? Fine. We'll just blow up your planet. You'll still be on it on the Thursday after next, right? That's when we can schedule you in.
ANH starts 19 years after Palpatine took power. Most people are unhappy with the Empire's rule, but they see it as inevitable. Watch the scene where Luke tries to convince Obi-Wan that he can't go with Ben to Alderaan. In a culture like this, especially in the core worlds where the atrocities are closer to home, taking a chance to fight off Imperial oppression is worth it.
And if they're careful they won't get caught.
And if they do get caught they have time to run away. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | It just isn't realistic enough (and yes I know how silly that is when talking about a universe like SW, where the rules of reality are twisted beyond belief at times for the story). A group that resists a politically and militarily superior foe, without the needed support, will fail ... look at the Kurds in Iraq, the college protesters in Iran, Tiananmen square & China, etc.
Even look at the AWI, we won battles & lost battles, and were to a point dominated by the British. However, the rebels stayed in the fight and eventually got support from the French and only then did the fighting turn around and we win our independence. Without France, despite amazing inspired leadership, troops willing to sacrifice for the cause, and local support (to a point,) eventually England would have ground down the rebellion and America would have never came into being. |
You're right that the conditions for the Rebel Alliance are pretty dire. I would adopt some of what Kytross is saying, but I won't go quite into that scale.
First off, I would dispute some of your historical examples. The Americans would have eventually thrown off the British even without French assistance. The British problem was the length of the transatlantic supply line and having to maintain forces elsewhere. It's simply inconceivable that over the course of more years tiny Britain could have held onto the North American continent if the Americans had remained resolutely opposed.
There are also some other historical examples worth thinking about, but I don't have an interest in dredging that up right now.
Think of the Outer Rim as being similar to the American hinterland, where the British did not have excessive military assets, and it being a somewhat untamed space. In the Outer Rim there were pockets where the Alliance was able to get industrial support from. One of these was Dac, the Mon Calamari homeworld. They mined the hyperroutes to keep the Imperials out. Had the Empire destroyed the rebels at Endor, Dac would have been the second Death Star's first planetary target, as the Empire would have eventually figured out a way past the mines (or have figured out how to destroy them).
But I do think it's worth noting that a civil war with such a huge imbalance needs to be thought of more carefully than we tend to think of conventional wars. It would have been much more like what is currently happening in Syria/Iraq.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Empire is not a unitary state; it is a hegemony. It does not claim a monopoly on the use of legitimate force within the galaxy. Much of the everyday law and order is left to autonomous local authorities that are organizationally very separate from the Imperial Navy. These local authorities have their own militaries, and these militaries are supplied by a military-industrial complex that builds weaponry for entities other than the Empire. Incom was such an operator before it was nationalized.
That's my sense of it, anyway. |
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lurker
Commander
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Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
You're right that the conditions for the Rebel Alliance are pretty dire. I would adopt some of what Kytross is saying, but I won't go quite into that scale.
First off, I would dispute some of your historical examples. The Americans would have eventually thrown off the British even without French assistance. The British problem was the length of the transatlantic supply line and having to maintain forces elsewhere. It's simply inconceivable that over the course of more years tiny Britain could have held onto the North American continent if the Americans had remained resolutely opposed.
There are also some other historical examples worth thinking about, but I don't have an interest in dredging that up right now.
…
That's my sense of it, anyway.
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Oh, I’m not trying to argue/debate you. If I’ve come off that way I apologize.
What are the other historic examples you are thinking of? Just to help me see what you are thinking ( and to help me see how the Alliance has a chance that I’m missing)
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
…
Think of the Outer Rim as being similar to the American hinterland, where the British did not have excessive military assets, and it being a somewhat untamed space. In the Outer Rim there were pockets where the Alliance was able to get industrial support from. One of these was Dac, the Mon Calamari homeworld. They mined the hyperroutes to keep the Imperials out. Had the Empire destroyed the rebels at Endor, Dac would have been the second Death Star's first planetary target, as the Empire would have eventually figured out a way past the mines (or have figured out how to destroy them).
But I do think it's worth noting that a civil war with such a huge imbalance needs to be thought of more carefully than we tend to think of conventional wars. It would have been much more like what is currently happening in Syria/Iraq.
….
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That may be the piece I’m missing … The outer rim being the base of support that is so needed. However, (again, this is my weakness not knowing the EU) for some reason I picture the Moffs having control of their sectors and not letting the Alliance gain a foot hold.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
…
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Empire is not a unitary state; it is a hegemony. It does not claim a monopoly on the use of legitimate force within the galaxy. Much of the everyday law and order is left to autonomous local authorities that are organizationally very separate from the Imperial Navy. These local authorities have their own militaries, and these militaries are supplied by a military-industrial complex that builds weaponry for entities other than the Empire. Incom was such an operator before it was nationalized.
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Again, I may be mispicturing the Empire. Would it ‘allow’ a governor to have power that would contemplate even passively support the Alliance? Well, as I think, ANH answers that … “The tighter you grip the galaxy, the more systems will slip through your fingers”. I guess that gives precedence for systems supporting the alliance. Too bad I don’t get that feel from the adventures etc.
| Kytross wrote: |
First off, some logistics: The Empire controls 1 million to 100 million worlds depending on your source of choice. In a galaxy with at least 100 BILLION stars, that's less than 1 percent of the stars in the galaxy. Unfortunately, this is a matter that most authors don't comprehend so they gloss over it. I am going to gloss over it too, though one day I'd love to have a steady group to explore a galaxy like this.
... |
I’ve never seen those numbers, but if it is even close to true, then there is plenty of places to provide the needed support to the Alliance. Again, however, I don’t get that feel from the adventures etc. Too bad though, because it makes sense!
| Kytross wrote: |
…
Now onto the narrative: Palpatine created a false crisis, raising up both the Republic and the Separatists to fight a civil war that would allow him to kill off the Jedi and crown himself Emperor. At the end of RotS he is the most powerful being in the galaxy with a fleet of warships bigger and more powerful than anything ever seen before.
Despite his power he didn't have the resources to station a cruiser at every planet, so he assembled sector fleets. How big was a sector fleet? In the Thrawn Trilogy it was only a handful of ships. Remember, Vader's Death Squadron was the largest fleet ever assembled in the history of the galaxy and it was only 39 ships at it's largest point.
... |
Ok, again, my weakness in the EU knowledge area … I always pictured a sector fleet being more than ‘a handful of ships’
Speaking of separatists, I think it could be a good option that Palpatine was too effective with creating separatists militias to justify the war ???? If you are fighting to divorce your system from a over powerful corrupt Republic. Won’t you be more willing to fight to divorce from a Dictatorial (and more corrupt) Empire!
With that, all those planets that were geared up to fight the Republic would easily be ready for war against the Empire. That would be a easy base of support for the Alliance especially at the critical early years.
| Kytross wrote: |
…
Consequently a system that went into rebellion wasn't expecting swift retribution, they were expecting eventual retribution. Eventually the Empire would get there and stomp out the fire of rebellion. Eventually. Sector fleets could take hours to days to get to a rebellious planet. More than enough time to run. This applied even more to the Death Star. Want to rebel against the Empire? Fine. We'll just blow up your planet. You'll still be on it on the Thursday after next, right? That's when we can schedule you in.
ANH starts 19 years after Palpatine took power. Most people are unhappy with the Empire's rule, but they see it as inevitable. Watch the scene where Luke tries to convince Obi-Wan that he can't go with Ben to Alderaan. In a culture like this, especially in the core worlds where the atrocities are closer to home, taking a chance to fight off Imperial oppression is worth it.
And if they're careful they won't get caught.
And if they do get caught they have time to run away |
Good point, it is one thing to support the Alliance if the big bad guy WILL show up and exact revenge. It is another to support them (especially more passive support or support that is plausible deniable) if the bad guy MAY show up (eventually as you point out) if and only if you get caught and if they don’t have bigger fish to fry with their limited fleet.
Thanks, that at least shows that the Alliance does have a chance (though small as it is)
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
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Zarn
Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I prefer a slightly different interpretation to why Palpatine did what he did. Oddly enough, it casts Palpatine as a (semi)good guy, at least in the sense that what he did was a necessary evil kind of thing. The following is a short synopsis of what I saw as a fan theory some years ago on some web page. Not mine, but for the life of me I can't find the original page.
Palpatine as a good guy:
Palpatine did a lot of Farseeing in the end, and (as I think Mara Jade once mentioned in the EU) a fat lot that did for him in the end. However, the basic gist is simple: Palpatine has been looking into the future for quite some time with Farseeing. Though the details shift ('always in motion, the future is'), there's a Galaxy-scale threat that keeps eating the timelines after a set time in the future.
The Galactic Republic at this time is largely inefficient. Internal squabbling, jingoistic rhetoric and gerrymandering makes sure that whatever problem is presented to the Galactic Republic is never handled in a timely fashion. Given a military threat that is on a Galactic scale, it is clear that the Galactic Republic won't be able to react until it is too late. Also, the Ruusan Reformation had disbanded the Jedi-led military forces of the Army of Light. In essence, there are self defence forces, but little innovation, little investment, no proper war machine.
Also, Palpatine is a Sith, and the ethics of a Sith don't really translate the concept of "due process" very well.
So, Palpatine decides to semi-fabricate a threat, provoke a conflict that'll end up with him - through subverting due process (I'm not Godwin'ing my own post, just pointing it out) - being granted emergency powers and paving the way for the New Order. He orders the clone army in the guise of Sifo-Dyas (having removed or corrupted Sifo-Dyas previously). Darth Tyranus foments the Separatist movement according to Palpatine's master plan.
The deadwood is carved away. Through the forge of internal strife, a more unified and tempered weapon is created. This weapon is maybe better suited for handling a Galaxy-scale threat. And then, in the Emperor's moment of triumph - disaster. He is disincarnated. And again. And his clones are corrupted. And his stratagem with Grand Admiral Thrawn fails. His Farseeing didn't show him that his own Dragon would turn against him, thereby kicking over the house of cards that he so laboriously had made.
Now, it's easy to insert the Vong-based threat as the Galaxy-level threat, but I think that's too simple. And I think it would be interesting if this was revealed in one of the Emperor's holocrons. And what if a leading member of the Jedi council, perhaps a clique or vocal minority, might decide that the Emperor was right, and then in essence take over Darth Krayt's position in the Legacy era, building a sort of oppressive Jedi Galactic Republic rather than the theocracy of a Sith state?
This is actually the backdrop for my own campaign that I'm slowly drawing up, set in about 40 ABY. The Praetorian Vong were the long and short of it - the worldships dying in transit during the long years of intergalactic travel. And the threat? Well, it might rotate in from Fold Space soon.
I'm thinking that the B5 movie "Thirdspace" might be a good inspiration for some proper asskicking, perhaps combined with the classic 'Otherspace' module or some sort of Kwa silliness. Haven't decided yet, not sure if I need to decide because my players are nowhere near as into SWEU as I am. |
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