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Kytross
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 Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:51 am Post subject: General Grievous/Darth Maul |
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Hey guys. When I first saw General Grievous in Ep 3, I assumed He was Darth Maul rebuilt.
Palpatine came to Naboo in Ep 1. We are never told what happened to Maul's body. As soon as I saw Grievous and realized he wasn't a droid I assumed Palpatine had collected Maul's body and managed to get his brain and heart working, much like how he got Anakin working again as Vader.
Grievous calls Obi-Wan Kenobi 'the negotiator.' That is never explained. I assumed it was because the last time they faced each other Obi-Wan had been a negotiator with Qui-Gon Gin to Naboo. The only other time we hear about negotiaions in the prequels is when Annie tells Padme about aggressive negotiations.
Grievous's eyelids are black and his eyes yellow, just like Darth Maul.
It's not much, but given only the info we have from the films it is possible and the only explanation as to how he was able to be trained in the Jedi arts. Most people aren't force sensitive. Finding someone who is and making a cyborg out of them seems a waste. But Palpatine using every resource he has, that makes sense. It also shows Palpatine's disregard for the rule of two.
Thoughts? |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Are you looking for canonical opinion?
Darth Maul makes an appearance in the Clone Wars, he's half insane.
My only problem with making Grievous into Darth Maul's reincarnation, is that at no point does he ever even attempt to use the Force. Also, it would seriously make his lightsaber skills lamer than they were in TPM, since Obi-wan quickly disarms him in their duel in Utapau.
It's an interesting theory, but I don't think it does the character any justice.
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Kytross
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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I know the canon. Grievous all but died, they saved him, put him in a droid body and infused him with Sifo-Dias' midi-chlorians.
Seriously. I can't make this up.
Then, Dooku trained him in the Jedi arts. So there was no reason he couldn't have used a force push or two. According to canon.
*sigh*
I want opinions. Canon disappoints me.
You've got a solid point with the Obi-Wan fight. Personally I would attribute it more to Kenobi's awesomeness and training over the last thirteen years while Maul was recovering. I have long held that Obi-Wan, by the end of the clone wars should have been the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy, or close to it. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Kytross wrote: |
You've got a solid point with the Obi-Wan fight. Personally I would attribute it more to Kenobi's awesomeness and training over the last thirteen years while Maul was recovering. I have long held that Obi-Wan, by the end of the clone wars should have been the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy, or close to it. |
Partially supported by the statement that he was the Master of Soretsu. Problem is, Dooku still trashed him.
If you don't mind dumping canon, then yeah, you can make Maul in Grevious. But that would cause some problems with the "Rule of Two". Frankly, Dooku wouldn't take to it.
Plus Grevious, in the film, isn't much to reckon with. Now it the old Clone Wars series he was very impressive, and he kept some of that in the new Clone Wars series, but in the film he mostly runs away, postures, and coughs.
Now, with the way the new Clone Wars series ended, Plapatine was going to do something with Maul, so maybe he could be the replacement "droid" Grevious from the EU? |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: General Grievous/Darth Maul |
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| Kytross wrote: | | I know the canon. Grievous all but died, they saved him, put him in a droid body and infused him with Sifo-Dias' midi-chlorians... Then, Dooku trained him in the Jedi arts... I want opinions. Canon disappoints me. |
| Kytross wrote: | | Hey guys. When I first saw General Grievous in Ep 3... Palpatine came to Naboo in Ep 1... given only the info we have from the films... Thoughts? |
You are free to disregard even film canon and have it work any way you want in your personal SWU, but it seems clear you are soliciting feedback on a premise based on what we see in the prequels yet able to disregard EU canon, so that criteria is the basis of my response (but I will also refer to out-of-universe information).
| Kytross wrote: | When I first saw General Grievous in Ep 3, I assumed He was Darth Maul rebuilt.
Palpatine came to Naboo in Ep 1. We are never told what happened to Maul's body. |
True, we were never shown what happened to Maul's body in the films. After TPM, Lucas was asked what purpose it served to cut Maul in half, and he stated it was because he knew that if it wasn't absolutely clear Maul was dead, fans would clamor for him to return in Episodes II or III. He wanted to introduce "original" villains in the subsequent prequels. Maul had served his purpose in TPM, the revelation to the Jedi of the Sith's return in the form of a mysterious Jedi-killer. (There is nothing to indicate Maul had any personal charisma and the leadership abilities needed to lead the Separatist movement in the coming war.) If fans had hoped Maul would return, that would have lead to greater disappointment when he didn't. Perhaps your desire for more Maul and/or disappointment with his death in his introductory film is a part of the inspiration for your perception of his later return, no?
So anyway, Maul getting cut in half before falling a great distance was a way to manage fan expectation, but it obviously wasn't completely successful because you still saw Grievous as Maul in RotS, and not everyone read the Star Wars Insider or Star Wars.com interviews to know explicitely from Lucas that Maul defintely would not return in the prequels films. (And then of course, years after the prequels, Lucas contradicted himself and brought Maul back to life despite being cut in half, which in retrospect further weakens the earlier attempt in TPM to make Maul's return seem impossible.) What Lucas says about the films is of course not explicit film evidence, but I thought it was worth mentioning. After TMP, I certainly had absolutely no expectation of Maul's return in Episode II or III (or ever for that matter).
| Kytross wrote: | | I assumed Palpatine had collected Maul's body and managed to get his brain and heart working, much like how he got Anakin working again as Vader. |
After RotS, Lucas stated that Maul, Dooku and Grievous all three in part represented different aspects of Darth Vader (which is why I put "original" in quotations above). Maul was the fearsome and menacing Sith enforcer sent out on missions to do Palpatine's bidding, Dooku was the human fallen Jedi, and Grievous was the cyborg that was more machine than living entity. One new villain per film. Yes, out-of-universe info, but just sayin'.
| Kytross wrote: | | Grievous calls Obi-Wan Kenobi 'the negotiator.' That is never explained. I assumed it was because the last time they faced each other Obi-Wan had been a negotiator with Qui-Gon Gin to Naboo. The only other time we hear about negotiaions in the prequels is when Annie tells Padme about aggressive negotiations. |
It is very implicit in RotS that Obi-Wan and Anakin were presented as the greatest Republic heroes of the Clone War. Anakin's Clone War reputation title is the "Hero Without Fear", which is meant to represent on the surface that he is an efficient fighter who dives right into danger and continually succeeds when facing death-defying odds. "Aggressive negotiations, so to speak." (Anakin's title is meant to be ironic because he was not completely without fear. It is his intense fear of loss that leads to the fall of Skywalker and the rise of Vader. Anakin defeated himself.)
In the film, Obi-Wan's reputation as "The Negotiator" was mentioned in contrast to Anakin's title. While still an excellent combatant and military leader, General Kenobi has a lot of success at ending conflicts through diplomacy, non-aggressive negotiations.
| Kytross wrote: | | Grievous's eyelids are black and his eyes yellow, just like Darth Maul. |
See the above image. Their eyes are nothing alike. Maul has the normal humanlike circular pupils, but Grievous has the nonhuman vertical slit pupils like crocodiles and some snakes. Grievous' eye opening shape is at an angle (going up as it goes out from the center), while Maul has horizontal eye openings.
Furthermore, Grievous' visible skin around his eye is dark reddish-brown, scaly and reptilian.
And you'll also notice from the image above that the shape of Grievous' face goes inwards (towards the center) below his eye. Except for the horns, Maul had a human head/face shape. The only way Grievous could have previously had a human-shaped head is if the bottom portion of the cheek bones and head were missing, which would have been such a severe injury to his head making it even less likely that he could have survived long enough to have been made into Grievous.
And that's beside the point of just being cut clean in half at the waist and falling a very great distance, which I agree with prequel-era Lucas that makes it seem pretty impossible to survive (so Maul's later post-prequel return in TCW was pretty stupid, IMO).
| Kytross wrote: | | Palpatine using every resource he has, that makes sense. It also shows Palpatine's disregard for the rule of two. |
Palpatine's disregard for the Banian Rule of Two was not to have more than two Sith Lords, but rather it was to have less. Palpatine hoped to end the cycle of the Rule of Two by becoming immortal and replacing it with a Rule of One, himself. In the EU, the two prior Sith lords also had similar aspirations but failed to bring them to fruition. In the prequels, it is suggested that Dooku became a Sith Lord soon after Maul died to replace him in the Sith structure, and then it is clear that Anakin replaced Dooku. That seems to conform to the Rule of Two.
However in the novel Darth Plagueis (spoilers follow in this paragraph), the titular character was actually the master Sith Lord at the time of TPM (behind the scenes) with Palpatine as the apprentice Sith Lord. Plagueis' plan was for himself to the rule the galaxy pulling the strings of Palpatine as a puppet leader. But Darth Maul wasn't even a secret apprentice. Palpatine trained Maul with the knowledge and approval of Plagueis, but Maul was only an agent, warrior and assassin to do their bidding. Palpatine lead Maul to believe that Palpatine was the master Sith Lord so that Maul could believe he was the apprentice Sith Lord. Palpatine gave Maul the title of Darth, but withheld some Sith training (perhaps Maul couldn't do Sith Lightning). Maul didn't know about Plagueis (but began to suspect the truth soon before his death). Of course Palpatine had plans of his own all along, and in the novel he killed his master behind the scenes during TPM, thus becoming the new master Sith Lord near the time of his election to Supreme Chancellor. After his master's death, Palpatine's first official apprentice Sith Lord was Dooku, and the Rule of Two was still never exceeded since Maul wasn't actually a Sith Lord. But Maul was Force-sensitive.
| Kytross wrote: | | Most people aren't force sensitive. Finding someone who is and making a cyborg out of them seems a waste. |
Agreed and agreed.
| Kytross wrote: | | It's not much, but given only the info we have from the films it is possible and the only explanation as to how he was able to be trained in the Jedi arts... Dooku trained him in the Jedi arts. So there was no reason he couldn't have used a force push or two. According to canon. |
I disagree that is the only explanation. The only "Jedi arts" Grievous demonstrated was fighting with lightsabers. And Grievous said Jedi arts because he was not a Sith, Dooku used to be a Jedi, and he was talking to a Jedi. Maul had never been a Jedi so it would have been "Sith arts". Jedi (such as Qui-Gon) may consider the Sith to merely be an offshoot of the Jedi Order, but the Sith do not. Sith believe they are a completely distinct and superior order, so I don't feel a Sith would describe themselves as knowing "Jedi" arts.
That being said, an even more important factor is the fact that Grievous did not demonstrate any Force-sensitivity or Force-use at all, not even a Force push or two. If Grievous had been a Force-sensitive whose powers were diminished by being a cyborg that was 80% machine and only 20% organic, then being a Force-user would be a pointless plot point if he didn't actually use the Force in some way in the film.
| Kytross wrote: | | Thoughts? ...I want opinions. |
IMO, Grievous was never even a near-human like Maul. IMO, Grievous is non-Force-sensitive reptilian alien cyborg (like Lucas said he was). In this case, I feel the EU canon jives with the films.
I also agree that Grievous really being Maul doesn't do either character any justice. There is a more originality if Maul and Grievous are separate characters. I feel it makes a more satisfying story that Obi-Wan killed two major separate enemies instead of saying that he only thought he had killed Maul but really failed at doing so, and then just had to defeat the same enemy again in new form in different way.
But hey, whatever flies your starship.
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aegisflashfire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:10 am Post subject: |
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In at least one episode of Clone Wars Grievous does deflect a blaster bolt with his lightsaber ("The Deserter" IIRC) but he's swinging wildly, its not clear that he's actually capable of deflecting blasters.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:06 am Post subject: |
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I know I could probably just look this up (and read a novel) on Wookieepedia, but one strange thing about Grievous to me was the coughing. They were very clear about the cough in the movie, but never really explained what the point of it was?
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aegisflashfire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:17 am Post subject: |
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in the Clone Wars cartoon which leaves off seconds before the start of EpIII he gets his chestplate crushed. I don't think he coughs during the Clone Wars CGI series.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, in the orginal Clone Wars series Mace Windu pulls a Force Crush move on him that causes the coughing.
And yes, Grevious does continue to have coughing fits in the CGI Clone Wars series.
Personally, I think Grevious doesn't make a very good villain in Episode 3. In what screen time he has he is pretty much having a coughing fit, on the run, or getting beaten. I think they needed to build him up some. Maybe he should have killed off one of the Jedi in a duel to make him more formidable. Anyone one of the "order 66" victims could ha ve worked without causing storyline problems. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Personally, I think Grievous doesn't make a very good villain in Episode 3. In what screen time he has he is pretty much having a coughing fit, on the run, or getting beaten. I think they needed to build him up some. |
I do agree. Grievous is cool but but could have been much better in RotS. I also go as far as saying Lucas should have put Grievous in the the blu-ray of AotC. Not necessarily a character with lines, but just to introduce him as part of the set-up. Grievous could have attended the Separatist meeting on Geonosis, and could have been shown killing Jedi in the Arena battle.
But then again I also think that they should have inserted Dooku into the background in TPM, like maybe show Dooku talking with Sifo-Dyas in a Jedi Temple establishing shot or something.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think the problem with Grievous is that Lucas had so many things he had to do in Episode 3 that there wasn't much time to establish Grievous. He had to kill off the Jedi, have Palpatine overthrow the Republic, turn Anakin to the Dark Side, kill of Dooku, resolve the Clone War, have Yoda go into hiding on Dagobah, have Kenboi go into hiding on Tatooine, and explain what happened to R2 and 3P0. Oh, and find the time for Padme to have children, and separate them.
Not much time left over for character development.
To be fair, Episode 6 has similar problems. IMO it's why thinks like Leia being Luke's sister come off as a cheat. It would have been much better if Lucas would have revealed it before the final film in the trilogy. |
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Kytross
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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At least in Empire we get Yoda's line, "There is another Skywalker." That was a bit of foreshadowing, yay!
One huge problem with Ep 3 is what we aren't told. We get hints and fragments and more hints and fragments when what we needed was revelations.
The Emperor could have had an amazing scene with Anakin where he reveals everything he had done, from creating Anakin with or without Plagius, to being Sifo-Dyas and creating the clone army, being Sidious and creating the Confederacy and working the two together to end the corruption in the Jedi and the senate and bring about a new order. Show Anakin it was his destiny to stand by Palpatine's side and create a better galaxy. Complete the circle of half truths started with that ends justify the means line "what I said was true, from a certain point of view." Show Anakin accepting that BS he had been fed his entire life by Qui-Gon and Kenobi, only twisted so Anakin's point of view aligns with the Emperor's. That would make Luke's rejection of the same line in RotJ even more powerful.
*sigh*
There's many ways to have made the prequels better. I still like Maul for Grievous. Whill brought up some really good points in comparing the eyes. And yes, I do appreciate movie canon. It's the EU I disregard with impunity. I figure if the flanneled one doesn't regard it much, neither should I.
Of course, he did let Timothy Zahn name Coruscant. That's something. |
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aegisflashfire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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not to nitpick, but Obi-Wan says
"That boy was our last hope."
Yoda replies, "No. There is another."
http://youtu.be/oasqjPHpxyI
Not until Ep. VI are we told its another Skywalker (Yoda's dying words actually)
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Interesting points, all. FWIQ, Grievous is my son's favorite character in all of SW.
I got the impression he was pretty badass based on the fact that he had collected so many lightsabers. Plus didn't he fight both Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, if only for a few seconds?
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:59 am Post subject: |
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So many interesting and wacky threads around this place.
| Kytross wrote: | | I still like Maul for Grievous. Whill brought up some really good points in comparing the eyes. And yes, I do appreciate movie canon. It's the EU I disregard with impunity. |
I think that's a fine retcon for your game. I always thought (like you, basically without reference to EU stuff) that Grievous was Palpatine's first attempt at rebuilding a broken apprentice. I've always assumed that there was some other between Maul and Count Poopoo. Your tweak is interesting but as Whill said then you have a problem with the Sith rule of two, if you care about that.
Also, thanks Whill for the extrapolation of the relation between Maul and Dooku. There's obviously some overlap, and a "Vader's Apprentice" type story fills it nicely.
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