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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: Forces of the Farstay Sector Group |
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I'm working on a home brew sector and plinking away bits and pieces as I feel like it and the recent discussions on the forums have sparked my interest in expanding these bits for my sector and I though I post them here for comments 
The main thing to understand is the Moff is using political pull to harmonize the ships he has in his sector based around Sienar fleet Systems models namely the Immobiliser 418 series I posted up here
Forces of the Farstay Sector Group
With the proliferation of Sienar Fleet Systems designs within the Farstay sector forces certain standardised TO&E of forces have developed over the last few years, a completely abnormal situation when compared to the Imperial Navy as a whole. Detailed below are a few of the standardised TO&E's at line and squadron level, also are some of the currently assigned forces as of 0 ABY and their locations and missions.
Farstay Line Organisations
Detailed below are the current as of 0 ABY line organisation prevalent in the Farstay sector, other line TO&E's are present the sector and will be highlighted when described in the assigned forces section below. The second type of attack line is used in anti-pirate operations, where the Interdictor bring them out of hyperspace and the Destructor can shred a fleet if it tries to flee in hyperspace.
Attack Line
- Four Dictator medium cruisers.
- Two Dominator cruisers, Interdictor cruiser and Destructor cruiser.
Heavy Attack Line
- Six Dictator medium cruisers.
- Four Vindicator heavy cruisers.
Pursuit Line
- Four Protector cruisers, two Interceptor carriers and two Castle cruisers.
Reconnaissance Line
- Two Surveyor cruisers.
Skirmish Line
- Eight Protector cruisers, four Interceptor carriers and four Castle cruisers.
Troop Line
- Four Invader cruisers, four Transporter cruisers and eight Dictator medium cruisers.
Bombard Line
- Two Subjugator bombardment cruisers.
Farstay Squadron Organisations
Detailed below are the current as of 0 ABY squadron organisation prevalent in the Farstay sector, other squadron TO&E's are present the sector and will be highlighted when described in the assigned forces section below. Each row lists the ships found in each squadron based upon the normal assignments of lines as described above. The attack and heavy attack lines have several combinations based upon what attack and heavy attack lines are used as building blocks the most common are listed here.
Attack Squadron
- Eight Dictator medium cruisers, eight Protector cruisers, four Interceptor carriers, four Castle cruisers and two Surveyor cruisers.
- Four Dictator medium cruisers, two Dominator cruisers, Interdictor cruiser, Destructor cruiser. eight Protector cruisers, four Interceptor carriers, four Castle cruisers and two Surveyor cruisers.
- Four Surveyor cruisers, twelve Protector cruisers, six Interceptor carriers and six Castle cruisers
Heavy Attack Squadron
- Sixteen Dictator medium cruisers and two Surveyor cruisers.
- Twelve Dictator medium cruisers, two Dominator cruisers, Interdictor cruiser, Destructor cruiser. and two Surveyor cruisers.
- Eight Vindicator heavy cruisers, four Dictator medium cruisers and two Surveyor cruisers.
- Eight Vindicator heavy cruisers, two Dominator cruisers, Interdictor cruiser, Destructor cruiser. and two Surveyor cruisers.
Battle Squadron
- Star Destroyer, eight Dictator medium cruisers. four Protector cruisers, two Interceptor carriers and two Castle cruisers.
- Star Destroyer, four Dictator medium cruisers. two Dominator cruisers, Interdictor cruiser, Destructor cruiser, four Protector cruisers, two Interceptor carriers and two Castle cruisers.
Troop Squadron
- Eight Invader cruisers, eight Transporter cruisers, sixteen Dictator medium cruisers, four Dictator medium cruisers, eight Protector cruisers, four Interceptor carriers and four Castle cruisers.
Bombard Squadron
- Four Subjugator bombardment cruisers, twelve Protector cruisers, six Interceptor carriers and six Castle cruisers. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. I think you need a little more variety in your ship selection. You're varying a line from as little as 2 to as many as 16 cruisers, when the idea is more along the lines of 3 heavy cruisers = 6 medium cruisers / frigates = 10-12 corvettes. Changing ships out on a purely numerical basis will throw things off balance, as in, what a line is used for. Cruisers pack a lot of firepower focused on a single location (i.e. it can only be one place at once), while Corvettes take a similar amount of power but disperse it over a greater area. Based on what you have, purely on ship power, a Skirmish Line far outguns a Heavy Attack Line.
You could always use Marauder Corvettes; they are a Seinar product...
EDIT: Plus, in 0 ABY, a Sector Moff isn't going to have the kind of political pull needed to custom design his own Sector Fleet like this; he'll get what the Navy assigns to him. A Grand Moff might potentially have enough sway to pull something like this off...
There are other factors to consider that don't get featured in the stats. A huge one is logistics. The larger a ship becomes, the less efficient it becomes, so by cramming cruiser-sized vessels into corvette-size organizational slots, you are adding a huge load to your sector's logistics units.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yep I know I need more variety but I was deliberately working with just the ships I've posted here for now it's only a first attempt/draft at the moment. will probably include the Marauder at some point if only to give a numerous small warship to the fleet.
A skirmish line is normally found spread out around the outside of enemy forces and not supporting each other or in small groups while the Heavy attack line will always operate together to smash opposition.
Though I agree by just hulls the skirmish line has more than a Heavy Attack line.
The Castle's though are lightly armed and the Protectors are dedicated antistarfighter cruisers. While the Dictator or Vindicator are built to engage other warships. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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But putting almost everything on a heavy cruiser hull, regardless of mission, is really a waste of resources. If a mission can be completed by a Corvette, why send out a cruiser which burns far more resources of all kinds? It's overkill.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | But putting almost everything on a heavy cruiser hull, regardless of mission, is really a waste of resources. If a mission can be completed by a Corvette, why send out a cruiser which burns far more resources of all kinds? It's overkill. |
Smaller range of spares and common skills across hulls gives savings on that front that can partially help reduce costs on that side but yes I need to include a corvette hull at some point.
Also remember this is partially driven by Sienar fleet Systems so more sales of expensive hulls and support, spares etc helps them. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I could see something like this for Seinar's own system defense force, external to the Imperial Navy.
But if you insist, I would suggest limiting your hull numbers, specifically, no more than 4 Immobilizer variants per Line, swapping out on a 2-for-1 basis with Castles.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
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Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to look into some corvette hulls to use in some lines.
I think I'll keep the cruiser hulls the same where I can and where it fits the description of lines in the imperial sourcebook which is what I'm using as a basis for my organisations. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| wildfire wrote: | I'm going to look into some corvette hulls to use in some lines.
I think I'll keep the cruiser hulls the same where I can and where it fits the description of lines in the imperial sourcebook which is what I'm using as a basis for my organisations. |
Sorry, but this is really stressing the bounds of in-universe realism for me, especially after the information we've come up with over on the Sector Fleet discussion. I've said what I have to say, so I'm going to give this a NIMC stamp and move on. Good luck with it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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wildfire
Lieutenant Commander
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Posts: 234
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay and thanks for the discussion. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting - I like this thread and the development of a home-brew sector. Are you thinking about writing up a booklet about the Farstey Sector?
| crmcneill wrote: | | EDIT: Plus, in 0 ABY, a Sector Moff isn't going to have the kind of political pull needed to custom design his own Sector Fleet like this; he'll get what the Navy assigns to him. A Grand Moff might potentially have enough sway to pull something like this off. |
Hm, I would have thought that by 0 ABY a Moff would have potentially already have had the political pull to design his own fleets, provided he had enough pull within the upper echelons of the navy to requisition the ships he would want. After all, the Sector Governance Decree, which gave significant powers to the Moffs, had been instituted nearly two decades previously.
Now, I don't think a Moff from a place like Farstey might have that kind of pull. Even if it isn't out on the Outer Rim, Farstey doesn't even have a good hyperroute, nor does it have any systems of particular note (unless Wildfire wants to write it up otherwise). |
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RexMundiAbu
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Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I think he *could* have that kind of political pull as well - he could be related to the Seinar family - married to a Seinar Heir perhaps ? He could also get these ships at a discount due to trialing them maybe ? Anyway just my thoughts on it . |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I would have thought that by 0 ABY a Moff would have potentially already have had the political pull to design his own fleets, provided he had enough pull within the upper echelons of the navy to requisition the ships he would want. After all, the Sector Governance Decree, which gave significant powers to the Moffs, had been instituted nearly two decades previously. |
Yeah, but enough power to dictate to Naval High Command that a Sector Fleet be equipped almost entirely with Heavy and Light Cruiser hulls? Regardless of the fact that putting Heavy Cruisers into Corvette slots on a one-for-one basis is a gross distortion of the OB (cruisers take a lot more crew and fuel than corvettes, after all)? Not to mention the logistical nightmares involved in supplying fuel and consumables at a much higher rate per ship? A Moff may demand this all he wants, but it doesn't mean he'll get it. Sure, he's got plenty of power in his own sector, but there are thousands of sectors across the galaxy and only one Imperial Navy, and one Moff demanding such an unbalanced TO&E for his sector will be told (very diplomatically, of course) to go blow himself out an airlock.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah, okay. When you made the reference to 0 ABY, I assumed that your argument was based on a Moff's authority within his system, or via-a-vis the Senate. Guessing that you mentioned the year with a purpose, how do you suppose a Moff's authority and resources charged over time? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Okay...
| wildfire wrote: | | Smaller range of spares and common skills across hulls gives savings on that front that can partially help reduce costs on that side |
Even partial savings are a pittance compared to the massively increased logistics required to man larger vessels. You're talking about fuel, atmosphere, food, and water, plus all the other little necessities of life that the crew will need. On top of that, you've got operating costs: a ship underway is racking up flight hours to its next overhaul or refit, which will be much more expensive for a cruiser than a corvette. Then there is the crew itself; they all have to be paid. Bottom line is that you are talking about a massive increase in expenses on the logistical side just so that you can cram a Heavy Cruiser-shaped peg into a Frigate or Corvette-shaped hole.
| Quote: | | Also remember this is partially driven by Sienar fleet Systems so more sales of expensive hulls and support, spares etc helps them. |
Yeah, but these expenses would still have to be justified to naval appropriations. And even if Seinar has advocates in that department, so will KDY, Rendili Stardrive, etc, and they won't be willing to give up a piece of their pie to help a rival company.
| wildfire wrote: | | I'm going to look into some corvette hulls to use in some lines. |
I would especially suggest putting corvettes in the Skirmish lines. The description of Skirmish lines specifically states 4-20 small combatants, not heavy cruisers. Even the Castle is a little too big.
| Quote: | | I think I'll keep the cruiser hulls the same where I can and where it fits the description of lines in the imperial sourcebook which is what I'm using as a basis for my organisations. |
A quick analysis of your lines...
Attack and Heavy Attack - These come closest to matching the OB. I still don't think it is appropriate to throw lighter guns on a Heavy Cruiser and call it a Medium Cruiser (especially when the Imperial Navy already has an excellent Medium Cruiser in the Strike), but you're obviously attached to the idea.
Pursuit - Supposed to be composed of fast light cruisers that can maintain contact with retreating enemy ships. Based on the stats you posted, the Interceptor cruiser/carriers (Space 6) are actually holding the Protectors (Space 8) back. Best to use ships with comparable speeds.
Reconnaissance - Okay, so the Surveyors are obviously a real Cadillac of a recon platform. Since they are replacing light cruisers, having only 2 instead of 4 is appropriate. This costs you, however, in real time recon ability in that the Surveyor can only be in a maximum of 2 places at once instead of 4.
Skirmish - Supposed to be composed of 4-20 "small combatants" with a mission of harassing larger ships or engaging enemy starfighters in coordinated action. Essentially what you have here is a double-sized Pursuit Line, and none of the vessels meet the description of "small combatants". This is a place for 200-300m corvettes and frigates, not a herd of 600m cruisers.
Troop - The key to the troop line is what it can carry. A single Evakmar-KDY can carry any of the Imperial Army's four corps types (the largest of which is the Armor Corps with 74,794 men, 1,219 heavy tanks and 5,128 other vehicles), with room to spare. Per the description in the OB, the ship was specifically built with room for expanded size units (my stat write-up for the Evakmar KDY gave it room for 120,000 troops). And the troop line has two of them, with a bare minimum of 160,000 passenger slots for troop transport. Your four Invaders total 72,000 troops, little more than half what two Evakmar-KDY's can carry. The Transporters are really more appropriate for the Support Forces at the Fleet level, so I'm guessing you included them to provide extra equipment transportation for the troop units. The problem there is that having troops on one ship and vehicles and equipment on another increases the coordination problems of getting everything to the surface and sorted out into some semblance of organization. And eight Dictators for a line that never goes anywhere that a Battle Squadron hasn't cleared first is just overkill.
Bombard Line - The basis for this, the Torpedo Line, is really one of the more contradictory things in a book filled with contradictions, but I'll leave that alone for now. I'm not sure why you overloaded some lines with way too many ships that are way too big for the mission you are assigning them, then leaving others at just 2 ships? Considering these two are basically fire support platforms, some kind of escort would be appropriate. IMO, considering how rare the Torpedo Sphere is supposed to be (only six in existence), a better fit for this line would be a pair of Victory I's, especially since bombard units are supposed to combat planetary defenses, while the Subjugator is intended as a fire support platform in secured orbital space.
Also, as I was reading through the descriptions of your various Immobilizer models, I saw a lot of variations on the phrase "black-balled" and "rejected by the Navy". If this is the case for so many of these ship types, how did enough of them get produced to make enough for a full Sector Group (which is usually in excess of 2,000 ships)?
To sum up, what you have here is a jumbled mess. Some ship types fit, others only fit by mission, not vessel size classification, while others seem jammed in somewhere because they had to go somewhere. The Cruiser / Frigate / Corvette classifications exist for a reason in the OB, and putting a cruiser in a slot meant for a frigate or corvette strains the believability of what you are trying to do here. On top of that, even if you wanted to make a sector group composed entirely of these ship types, some of your ship write-ups need to be reworked to show that the ships actually went into production rather than just being failed prototypes. In addition, your back story of how this sector group came into being needs to be much more robust than it is to justify something so far removed from the OB listed in the ImpSB. Ultimately, this is less of a sector group organizational chart than a Seinar Fleet Systems dog & pony show. The mission requirements of the line should dictate the ships assigned to it (including efficiency and logistics), rather than just putting in a ship that fills general requirements.
IMO, a lot of your ships would make an excellent addition when filling out slots in the existing OB, but they should be applied in a manner consistent with the OB. If you still want to continue with your project as proposed, I'm willing to assist you, as I've wasted a lot of nerd-time getting to know the Imperial Sourcebook. However, I hope you will take into account what I've pointed out as you move forward.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16281
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Ah, okay. When you made the reference to 0 ABY, I assumed that your argument was based on a Moff's authority within his system, or via-a-vis the Senate. Guessing that you mentioned the year with a purpose, how do you suppose a Moff's authority and resources charged over time? |
It's not so much a question of how the Moff's authority changed over time, but the proportional nature of that authority to begin with. A Moff's authority in his own sector may be near-absolute, but that doesn't mean he can dictate naval procurement procedures. There are thousands of sectors and just one Navy, and while a Moff may be able to influence what kinds of Navy ships his sector gets (depending on his degree of influence), the Navy gets to decide what ships it procures. That means that, if the Navy is accepting contract bids for a new heavy cruiser model, they are the ones who pick between the Heavy Cruiser prototypes produced by KDY, Seinar and Rendili, not some Sector Moff who has a thing for Seinar products.
Plus, if you read the descriptions of the cruisers wildfire is using to flesh this thing out, a lot of them were limited prototypes that never went into full production, so how is there enough of them to fill out all the cruiser slots in a sector group, never mind the frigate and corvette slots, too. It doesn't matter how much pull he has if he is requisitioning ships that don't exist.
Now, the reason I mentioned 0ABY is because during this time period, the Empire was still in power (this is 3-4 years before Endor). After the Emperor gets killed and the Empire fractures, it becomes a lot more likely that a Sector Moff will strike out on his own, cut deals with Seinar in exchange for resources, and end up with a fleet primarily composed of SFS products. When the Navy was one massive monolithic entity, it made its own decisions on ship procurement, and those decisions were mirrored galaxy-wide. When the Navy was broken down into factions, their procurement became more varied, reflecting local conditions, politics and economics.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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