A Force attribute?

[Whill]

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=141977#141977

[Whill]

crmcneill and others have mentioned making a Force attribute. I've already decided for my game to make the Force skills based on a Force attribute (an "extranormal" attribute like in D6 Space). Many of the specifics aren't worked out yet so I am definitely interested in more discussion on this topic. A few of my preliminary thought are...

I wanted to simplify the Force rules in my game to make them more based on other existing rules when possible. It seems intuitive from a D6 perspective to give the 3 Force skills an attribute instead of being free-floating skills. And a Force attribute would indeed explain how some film characters seem to be born with more Force ability without training and a power level beyond what their amount of training would indicate, as cr said in the thread about Luke destroying the Death Star with Luke possibly having 6D or 7D in a Force attribute. Film canon characters are not PCs so are not limited to only having 18D in attributes.

I never liked how Force characters starting with 2 Force skills automatically had 2 less attribute dice to allocate to their 6 normal attributes, and PCs starting with all 3 Force skills likewise started with 3 less attribute dice, which really makes your Force-character crappy at almost everything else. And the cost to start with a Force skill seems disproportionately high compared to the cost to learn them and gain them later after play begins. And Force skill cost attribute dice to have the first 1D, but then you can allocate skill dice to raise them above 1D. It just seems wonky.

A Force attribute would cost the same as any other attribute, regardless of how many of the 3 Force skills you started with. You could still have 17D in normal attributes just to get 1D in the Force attribute, but if you really wanted to start out more powerful you could have a starting value higher than 1D at the same cost attribute dice to allocate to other attributes. Then how many Force skill dice you have above your attribute depends on how many skill dice you allocate to them, like any other skills.

I am tentatively calling my Force attribute "Metaphysical" (short for "Metaphysical Aptitude" in the spirit of the full names of MEC and TEC, and inspired by D6 Space's extranormal attribute called "Metaphysics".). This clearly differentiate it from the Force Points mechanic. Metaphysical is another attribute on my character sheet, so having 0D in it means the character is not Force-sensitive, and having 1D or more means they are. There is no longer a need for a Force-sensitive Yes or No designation. And if you have 0D in Metaphysical, any normal skills under that which default to the attribute would also be 0D so you wouldn't be able to use that Force skill.

Since normal skills default to the attribute but not all Force-sensitive characters have all three Force skills, I thought of using the existing mechanic of Advanced skills to represent that since they do not default to any attribute. However, it doesn't seem right within the framework of D6 for all three Force skills to be advanced skills, so if at least one skill is going to come with having a die or dice in the Metaphysical attribute, which one? According to RAW, the usual first skill learned is Control, but based on the fact that the designation of being a Force-user is Force-Sensitive Yes, I feel it should be Sense. So right now I'm thinking of making Sense the Force skill that defaults to the attribute, while Control and Alter have to be learned like advanced skills before they can be used and thus start at 1D when you learn them instead of the Force attribute value.

I've also considered the idea of making Force powers be skill specializations of Force skills, but that runs into a couple problems. Based on the existing skill mechanic, you would suddenly have access to all Force powers for that skill which seems a bit much all at once. And if you specialized, then any later raising of the base skill means you wasted points on specializing, just like with any skills. And what about powers that use multiple skills? So then I thought, what if all the Force Powers are also advanced skills with prerequisites being whichever Force skills are needed for that power, plus whatever other Force powers are needed, which also brings the prerequisite powers from RAW into it. But then it gets more complicated when considering what all dice do you roll in skill/power attempts with multiple layers of advanced skills.

But then there is also the consideration of cost to improve skills (and possibly skill specializations). Advanced skills only start at 1D but have double the cost to raise. Should raising the advanced Force skills of a Force attribute use normal advanced skill rules? So double the cost with a teacher, and which would make it quadruple without? But then if Sense is a normal skill while Control and Alter aren't, that would mean Sense is twice as easy to improve than Control and Alter at the same die values.

I started to get a headache the last time I tried to work this out, so then I started thinking it would probably be easier to keep Force powers as powers (instead of powers being Force skill specializations or their own advanced skills), but I still want to have the three Force skills under a Force attribute. At the moment I'm still leaning towards Force-sensitive characters having Sense default to the attribute but Control and Alter being advanced skills, despite that making Control and Alter cost double the points of Sense to improve. Since powers can only be used when the Force-using characters learn them, the GM still controls how easy the access is to training from someone who has the higher skill level and knows the power.

I've also thought about simplifying the Force power rolls and even consolidating like powers into fewer more general powers with multiple uses, but that would seem to be another thread.

Anyway, thoughts on a Force attribute and how it might work?
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[garhkal]

What would you give as a racial min/max for a force attribute? Would there even BE one?

How would you convert existing characters (whether PC or NPC) to that attribute way of doing things?
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[CRMcNeill]

You've clearly put a lot more thought into this than I have. A few thoughts...

As far as character creation, attribute maximums and minimums would be appropriate (the same as all the other attributes), with 0D as the minimum for all species, save any that may be default Force Sensitive.

I'm okay with the attribute being called Force or Force Sensitive, as the distinction between the two is pretty clear to me.

I'm okay with the three standard Force skills staying as standard skills rather than Advanced. I agree that Sense would likely be the one the untrained character is most likely to experience first, at an instinctive level. Perhaps for untrained Force use, a character can expend a Character Point and be allowed to use a single Sense skill as normal...

I've considered the possibility of an Force Attribute advanced skill based off of specific training or doctrine. For now, I'd call the skill category Lore, with each type being a separate Advanced Skill, such as Jedi Lore or Sith Lore, and so on and so forth. Having dice in a specific facet of Force User Lore would apply as a bonus to Force abilities that are specific to that doctrine.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[CRMcNeill]

[gavin storm]

[atgxtg]

I've also been thinking of adding a Force attribute.

I believe that every living creature should have at least some rating, since it is alive.

For Humans I assume that they have 1D in the attribute, since most have it, but aren't very strong with it. I'd like to give them 2D, but then I might have to adjust the power difficulties. Force Sensitive characters start off at 2D. I'd place the human max at either 3D or 4D. Basically a starting character gets 1D in Force per Force Point they have.

For aliens it a little more complicated. They get the same ranges as humans unless there is something in the racial description that would suggest a different range.

I am also tending to letting characters use their Force attribute to resist force skills instead of using PER.

[Whill]

[Whill]

[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

[DougRed4]

Just as I started reading this thread, I was thinking "Sense should be the default skill one gets" (so I completely agree it should be the first/initial one).

I don't think making them advance at the rate of Advanced Skills is the way to go, personally. The GM can already control/slow down what a Jedi character learns by limiting what their teacher (or a holocron) has available for them.

If I were starting a brand new campaign I'd probably make a new Attribute called "The Force" and let Jedi characters allocate some of their starting 18D into it.

I don't subscribe to the view that the Skywalkers should play by any different rules than other PCs or NPCs. The main characters in the published WEG books all have 18D in attributes, and I think one could adjust things to keep them with very much the same "feel", even if a Force attribute were added in (perhaps in this case characters like Luke and Obi-Wan would require more than 18D in total attributes, but they'd probably lose a few of their skills to balance things out).
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green

[Whill]

[atgxtg]

[atgxtg]

cheshire wrote: