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griff
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Joined: 16 Jan 2014
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: Bail What's his Name! |
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We all know that from the beginning Leia's last name was thought to be Organa, taken from her adopted parents. That was unit Episode 1 were the senator from Alderaan was nominated for for Supreme Chancellor Bail Antilles. The reaction from the crowd was as if you told the the sky was really green. And in Episode 2 it was changed to Organa. Now with the Blue Ray Special Special fork out a hundred dollars edition they replaced the muppet Yode in I too CGI Yoda from II, but phrase Bail Antilles is still in there. WTF! Now I know someone out there is gonna say that there were two Bails, thats a cop out. And I know Leia uses the last name Organa in the episode IV novel (the books don't matter to the movie). Does anyone else think that Lucas should have kept Bail's last name as Antilles, and give the middle finger to the entire EU (like I do), or was he right to change it to Organa to calm down all the fanboys who dropped a #2 during episode 1. 
Last edited by griff on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't Bail antillies Wedge's grand pa (or father)?
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griff
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| We do hear 3PO say "our last master was Captain Antilles" in episode IV, Bail last name left out, put the care of the two droids to Captain Antilles in episode III. We see there and adult and a teenage boy, (they maybe related to Wedge (father and older broth perhaps). |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Lucas showed on multiple occasions that he had no trouble giving the middle finger to the EU, but "Organa" was not from the EU. Lucas made that himself, but in the final filmed script of the original film the last name for Leia (or her unnamed but referenced "father") just didn't end up being stated. The credits at the end of the film stated the character's name as "Princess Leia Organa", even back in 1977.
Bail Organa was originally going to appear in Episode I. An actor was cast and a scene in the Senate was filmed. But Lucas decided to cut the scene, and the dialogue where Captain Panaka tells Queen Amidala the other Senators that were nominated to succeed Chancellor Valorum was changed from Bail Organa to Bail Antilles making them two separate characters (sorry). The EU explains that Bail Antilles was the Senator of Alderaan before Bail Organa took over the post. With the Bail Organa Senate scene being cut, Lucas was free to later recast the role.
It might not seem to us that there was any need to change the dialogue because the unseen Bail Organa still could have been nominated. I'm guessing that Lucas knew that deleted scenes would still be referenced in EU material, so he wanted to minimize any confusion by later recasting a new actor with a different appearance. And it also may not seem to us that Lucas had any reason for the cut senator to be referenced in dialogue by only a new last name and not a different first name also, but by changing only one name he was still leaving a reference to the original role of the cut actor. Ultimately, no one really knows why Lucas does what he does, but the cut Senator's physical appearance was referenced in EU novels as describing the character "Bail Antilles" which was a film canon character name from the dialogue reference.
And it is really no big deal that two successive Senators from Alderaan just happened to have the same first name. I'll bet that there are cases of two successive US senators from the same state have the same first name. Maybe Bail is a common name among the noble families of Alderaan.
Bail Organa's wife Breha is the daughter of Bail Antilles in the EU, which makes Bail Antilles the father-in-law of Bail Organa. Raymus Antilles, Captain of the Tantive IV was the son of Bail Antilles (and thus brother-in-law to Bail Organa). Bail Organa's marriage to Breha Antilles was created to be the resolution to the "Alderaan Ascendancy Contention" mentioned by Timothy Zahn in the Thrawn Trilogy.
The House of Antilles had no relation to Wedge Antilles' family of Corellia. It has been stated Antilles is the SW human equivalent of Smith.
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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griff
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| That was a great post Whill. My point of the name Organa being from the EU was only the fact that it was never spoken in the original Trilogy. And I think that it is a little lame to have two guys with the same name in the same job from the same planet, especially when your trying to tie in as many story arcs as possible. But just to name a few other people with the same name, Jedi master Mace Windu, I, II, II, Mace from the Ewok TV movies, and (with the same spelling) Mace Windu (short furry alien with big ears) Galaxy Guide 7 Mos Eisley. |
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Whill
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| griff wrote: | | That was a great post Whill. |
Whill's depth of knowledge astounds many of us on a regular basis. This would be a "Welcome to The Rancor Pit" moment.
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Whill
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| griff wrote: | | That was a great post Whill. |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Whill's depth of knowledge astounds many of us on a regular basis. This would be a "Welcome to The Rancor Pit" moment. |
You're very welcome!
| griff wrote: | | And I think that it is a little lame to have two guys with the same name in the same job from the same planet, especially when your trying to tie in as many story arcs as possible. But just to name a few other people with the same name, Jedi master Mace Windu, I, II, II, Mace from the Ewok TV movies, and (with the same spelling) Mace Windu (short furry alien with big ears) Galaxy Guide 7 Mos Eisley. |
The state of Washington had two successive Republican US senators named John Allen and John Wilson, but the planet of Alderaan can't have two galactic senators (maybe not even successive) with the same first name? Wow.
"Bail Antilles" was an unused name from an incarnation of the original Star Wars story under development in the 70s. The ANH character of the Corellian Wedge Antilles is unrelated to the Captain Antilles of Senator Leia Organa's Alderaanian ship (See the common surname name Antilles). The prequel character of Bail Antilles is the father of Captain Antilles from ANH. I for one am glad they replaced TPM Bail's original actor, made him a different character, and got Jimmy Smits to play Bail Organa. The first name "Bail" could be the "John" of Alderaan.
"Mace Windu" was the very first character name Lucas came up with when he first started writing Star Wars story treatments in the early 70s, but as you know the name ended up never being used in the classic trilogy. Yes, the unused first name was used for a character in the live-action Ewok TV movies (84-85), and when WEG produced GG7 in 93, they used the entire unused name for a Squib character despite the first name only already being used in a prior pre-EU Star Wars product. At that time, it still wasn't certain the prequels would even be made. Then in 96 when the prequels were in development, the SW Adventure Journal established the Squib Mace Windu's name was a nickname for the Squibbian name Macemillian-winduarté, completely in the same vein as other Squib characters such as Spilfer (Spilferithimus-narlamos) established in Scavenger Hunt (89). For the prequels, Lucas followed his usual MO of ignoring the EU and used the name he invented in the early 70s for the film character Mace Windu first appearing in 99. Then in 03 the EU established that during the Clone Wars, the Jedi Mace Windu lead the Republic against the Separatist Confederacy in the Battle of Skor II, and the grateful Squibs anointed him Big Time Hero of Beyond-Squib Eliteness. So the EU did what it was supposed to do by conforming to films, establishing a good reason that a classic trilogy era alien EU character could be named after prequel era human Jedi fim character (and the very lame Ewok TV movies were rightfully never referred to again). And per the EU, Mace is a common given name in the SWU.
And as an interesting side note, the planet Utapau was the very first Star Wars planet name Lucas invented in the 70s, but it was not actually used in the franchise until 2005.
What's the big deal with a couple SW characters having the same first name? It's a big franchise for a big galaxy. As an extreme fanboy myself, I've encountered a lot of other extreme fanboys with all kinds of various oddball concerns about the franchise, but there being multiple Bails or Maces in the SWU is a unique complaint/critique in my experience.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I don't get the problem either. Here on Earth it's quite common for multiple people to have the same name, so in a galaxy with so many worlds it's even more likely to happen!
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