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DougRed4
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Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:45 pm Post subject: Star Wars Story Group Canon |
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Wasn't sure which section to post this in; I suppose canon is something that mostly relates to how we each run our respective games/campaigns, so I'll put it here.
We've talked about canon and Star Wars before, and I've pointed people to Leland Chee, the "keeper of the holocron"' for Lucasfilm in the past.
This week Chee announced that a 'Story Group' will decide what is canon and what is not (there will no longer be an "EU"; it will all either be canon or not).
And this op-ed piece puts things in harsher tones, saying (for example) that Disney is "taking a chainsaw to the EU" and "De-crapifying the universe".
Personally, while I agree that there is a lot of garbage out there, I tend to view things like the following person posted (over on rpg.net):
"I'll admit that sometimes I think something is dumb and shouldn't be canon...but that is always tempered by the knowledge other people feel the same way about what I like, and that there is little in the world more petty and spiteful than wanting to take away something someone else enjoys just because you don't enjoy it and it is a completely voluntary act of consumption anyway."
So what are your thoughts? It sounds likely that they'll undo much of what we've seen/read after Episode VI, which only makes sense (clearing the path for them to create new stories). That could mean cool things like Admiral Thrawn and Mara Jade go away, along with others (like the Yuuzhan Vong) that aren't generally loved as much.
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Centinull
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 156
Location: The Outer Rim Territories
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:22 am Post subject: |
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As long as they keep Zahn's stuff in the cannon I'll be happy.
Considering the age of the actors, I'm sure they'll skip enough years to get to Episode VII that the Thrawn Trilogy can remain intact.
For continuity, all they need to do is introduce Mara as Lukes Jedi wife. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: |
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I loved that blog! And this is great news. The EU is so internally inconsistent and the tons of continuity would be oppressive.
I have my own personal canon and it is likely that Disneyfilm will ax a lot of the same things I already did. Long before we knew about new films, I already axed all post-RotJ stories. I do use some alien species, droids, ships, and even a few characters from these stories, but I use them in my own way not restricted by any continuity of events from this era. I concur that most of the EU from this era is utter garbage anyway. The lame resurrections of Palpatine and Boba Fett, more Skywalkers joining the Dark Side, Anakin Solo, alien invaders of the week, the death of Chewbacca, etc.
I know I'm in a minority among SW fans, but I'll be happy to see Mara Jade go. As an amalgamation of Luke, Han, Leia and Vader, she was an interesting character. I enjoyed the Thrawn Trilogy all the way to the end when the classic trinity were marginalized in the climax so that Mara Jade could singlehandedly usurp them in importance, the authors own (unoriginal) character being elevated above them. It made me sick.
Timothy Zahn's film era novels have just been horrible, but for some insane reason I just keep reading them. There is no way in hell that Jorus C'baoth as portrayed would ever been in the Jedi Order, the film heroes are again marginalized, and Thrawn is a protagonist. Mara Jade is a teenaged Imperial superhero more powerful than Vader, and his rogue stormtroopers are completely unconvincing characters.
Who I would love to see flushed but probably won't be is Asucka (and thus the entire The Clone Wars series). As ranted elsewhere, Anakin ever having an apprentice represents a severe film continuity violation IMO. I can't reconcile that series as existing in the same universe with the films.
There are a few good things I hope get saved. Shadows of the Empire still works for me. All the prequel era novels by James Luceno are gold (While he does invent new characters, they don't take anything away from the film characters dramatically, and the novels fill in a lot of blanks with non-contradictory continuity.) They actually support the films.
When it is all said and done, it ultimately doesn't matter. While it is fun to root for the things you like and root down the things you don't like, Disneyfilm can't erase history. The EU still exists - It will just be a separate universe. You still have all the books you like and can re-read them. They are still available to by at your bookstores or the internet.
And we will still be able to define our own personal canons. Keep what you like and disregard what you don't (films or other media), regardless of what makes the "official" cut or not. Jus like always, you define your own Star Wars Universe.
| Centinull wrote: | As long as they keep Zahn's stuff in the cannon I'll be happy.
Considering the age of the actors, I'm sure they'll skip enough years to get to Episode VII that the Thrawn Trilogy can remain intact.
For continuity, all they need to do is introduce Mara as Lukes Jedi wife. |
To keep the Thrawn Trilogy would be to keep Jacen and Jaina, which I doubt they will. These characters come with too much continuity baggage and fan expectations. Will we see the next generation of the Skywalker family? Absolutely (Jett Lucas revealed that in an interview). But I think it is very likely they will start over with fresh new characters for the younger generation of heroes. That gives EU fans something new to possibly also like, instead of a thousand things to pick apart and probably not like.
I think it is best if fans start to accept the loss of Thrawn from official canon, if official canon is important to you. You will still be free to choose Thrawn and disregard the new films in your personal canon, or perhaps even enjoy both universes despite their differences.
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Centinull
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 156
Location: The Outer Rim Territories
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: |
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I understand we are all adults and we are going to have different opinions, but honestly one of the best parts of the EU was that it occasional focused on characters other than Luke, Lei, and Han.
| Whill wrote: | | When it is all said and done, it ultimately doesn't matter. While it is fun to root for the things you like and root down the things you don't like, Disneyfilm can't erase history. The EU still exists - It will just be a separate universe. You still have all the books you like and can re-read them. They are still available to by at your bookstores or the internet. |
I completely agree, and to be honest, the instant we start imagining our Characters in the Star Wars universe this is exactly what we are doing.
| Quote: | | The lame resurrections of Palpatine and Boba Fett, more Skywalkers joining the Dark Side, Anakin Solo, alien invaders of the week, the death of Chewbacca, etc. |
I think you should prepare for some disappointment. The Emperor, at least in force ghost form, could return, Boba Fett returns in his own stand alone movie, and the Solo children are the natural characters to pass the torch to in episodes VIII and IX. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | When it is all said and done, it ultimately doesn't matter. While it is fun to root for the things you like and root down the things you don't like, Disneyfilm can't erase history. The EU still exists - It will just be a separate universe. You still have all the books you like and can re-read them. They are still available to by at your bookstores or the internet.
And we will still be able to define our own personal canons. Keep what you like and disregard what you don't (films or other media), regardless of what makes the "official" cut or not. Jus like always, you define your own Star Wars Universe. |
I agree with that vast majority of what you wrote, Whill. The only thing I might disagree about is the books we like continuing to be available. That might be true for now, but - IF they end up axing certain things - it's possible they might no longer publish stuff that doesn't fit with their 'official' version of canon. Eventually, such stuff could fall away and be forgotten.
| Centinull wrote: | As long as they keep Zahn's stuff in the cannon I'll be happy.
Considering the age of the actors, I'm sure they'll skip enough years to get to Episode VII that the Thrawn Trilogy can remain intact.
For continuity, all they need to do is introduce Mara as Lukes Jedi wife.
I think you should prepare for some disappointment. The Emperor, at least in force ghost form, could return, Boba Fett returns in his own stand alone movie, and the Solo children are the natural characters to pass the torch to in episodes VIII and IX. |
Most reaction I'm reading from fans suggests that most people believe they'll axe everything after Episode VI, and I tend to agree. While I also really enjoy what Zahn added, I also realize this "clears the canvas" enough to allow them to do whatever they want, thus freeing them up to re-brand with everything they want.
While they could end up keeping some fan-favorites (like Mara Jade), it's also possible they could only do so in a marginal way (we could see a blue-skinned Admiral in the background, for instance); they also might choose to excise all of the stories and only keep a few of the characters.
Keep in mind that the Boba Fett movie doesn't necessarily mean he would have survived the sarlacc. They could always do movies showing the 'young' Boba Fett and Han Solo, which would mean continuing on with the characters sans the original actors.
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Centinull
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
Posts: 156
Location: The Outer Rim Territories
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm certain they'll axe whatever conflicts with their new movies, but they are going to use the original actors as the main characters for the first movie, and supposedly pass the torch to the younger generation in the second film.
The Actors are 30 years older. They are going to have to jump some time. It makes little sense to eliminate stories that falll into that gap and don't conflict with the new vision.
The whole New Jedi Order Era and Legacy Era are probably doomed. If they have any good sense at all I, Jedi will be purged from all galactic databanks, all physical copies burned, and Michael A. Stackpole will be barred from writing further Star Wars novels. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Centinull wrote: | | I completely agree, and to be honest, the instant we start imagining our Characters in the Star Wars universe this is exactly what we are doing. |
Yup.
| Centinull wrote: | | one of the best parts of the EU was that it occasional focused on characters other than Luke, Lei, and Han. |
I'm ok with focusing on supporting and new characters, but after Luke had been a central character of the Thrawn Trilogy, suddenly in the climax of the Last Command it was Mara Jade who killed both Luke's clone and one of the two main villains of the trilogy with Luke helpless nearby. It felt to me like an unnatural dramatic shift in the story, and it just happened to be the author's own character (who was really Luke-Han-Leia-Vader in the disguise of a young green-eyed redhead). It was a let-down for me after enjoying the whole trilogy so much until the climax. Maybe if someone had warned me that Mara Jade would be the one to defeat the dark side villain of the story, I may have enjoyed the ending more.
| Centinull wrote: | | I think you should prepare for some disappointment. The Emperor, at least in force ghost form, could return, Boba Fett returns in his own stand alone movie, and the Solo children are the natural characters to pass the torch to in episodes VIII and IX. |
Sorry my intended meaning wasn't more clear. I said "lame resurrections" meaning that it was done in a lame way for a lame purpose in the EU. I did not mean that any possible cinematic return of Palpatine would be lame. I'm open to the possibility of them finding a way to make it cool.
And regarding Force Ghosts, it was in the Revenge script (and I believe the novelization) that at the end, the Force Ghost of Qui-Gon explained that the Sith were incapable of becoming Force Ghost because the power to do so was based on love. Since that didn't make it in the film, it may not be considered canon. I devised a way Dark Siders can sort of survive death that is an element of a couple of my campaigns, so we'll see if the new films contradict me. 
| Centinull wrote: | | Boba Fett returns in his own stand alone movie |
| DougRed4 wrote: | | Keep in mind that the Boba Fett movie doesn't necessarily mean he would have survived the sarlacc. They could always do movies showing the 'young' Boba Fett and Han Solo, which would mean continuing on with the characters sans the original actors. |
What he said. I thought it was supposed to be a post-Prequel prequel. Boba Fett was so lame in the films I don't know how they could make him interesting enough to be the central character of his own film without it being a totally different Boba Fett than the one that misses Luke at close range (when Luke is not paying attention to him) and dies so accidentally after screaming with arms flailing widely. Boba Fett never lived up to the later-revealed badassness of his father. I'm not looking forward to the Boba Fett film, but of course I'll watch it anyway.
| Centinull wrote: | | The Solo children are the natural characters to pass the torch to in episodes VIII and IX. |
Solo children in general are the natural characters to pass the torch to, but not The (existing) Solo children. I think it is likely they will create original Solo children. Otherwise they'd have something akin to all intense nerd rage the old Star Trek fans have for the new versions of the classic characters because they're different. If they are wiping the slate clean, there is no reason to not do something new. Sure they will never make everyone happy no matter what they do, but at least there is a chance that existing EU fans could also like the new younger generation.
| Centinull wrote: | | If they have any good sense at all I, Jedi will be purged from all galactic databanks, all physical copies burned |
LOL
| DougRed4 wrote: | | Most reaction I'm reading from fans suggests that most people believe they'll axe everything after Episode VI, and I tend to agree. While I also really enjoy what Zahn added, I also realize this "clears the canvas" enough to allow them to do whatever they want, thus freeing them up to re-brand with everything they want. |
What he said again.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | While they could end up keeping some fan-favorites (like Mara Jade), it's also possible they could only do so in a marginal way (we could see a blue-skinned Admiral in the background, for instance); they also might choose to excise all of the stories and only keep a few of the characters. |
Maybe. I think they will likely regulate some of the prequel stuff to easter eggs, like a quick glance of some generic Gungan in the background.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | I agree with that vast majority of what you wrote, Whill. The only thing I might disagree about is the books we like continuing to be available. That might be true for now, but - IF they end up axing certain things - it's possible they might no longer publish stuff that doesn't fit with their 'official' version of canon. Eventually, such stuff could fall away and be forgotten. |
Everyone please go out and get your favorite EU material now! While you still can! Then it still exists for you and it will not be forgotten by those who wish to remember. This is much better than waiting until it is gone and then lamenting on the internet how Disney destroyed your childhood!
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Centinull wrote: | | If they have any good sense at all I, Jedi will be purged from all galactic databanks, all physical copies burned, and Michael A. Stackpole will be barred from writing further Star Wars novels. |
I liked I jedi..
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griff
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| A little something deep inside hopes that JJ will do a reboot like with Star Trek, similar story same characters, better dialog. |
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Nico_Davout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Centinull wrote: | | If they have any good sense at all I, Jedi will be purged from all galactic databanks, all physical copies burned, and Michael A. Stackpole will be barred from writing further Star Wars novels. |
I liked I jedi.. |
What? That was superb novel. Hands off from EU!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Here, here. I, Jedi was a great read, and it at least tried to make some sense out of the trainwreck that was KJA's involvement in the SW EU before he went off to savage the Duniverse.
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griff
Captain
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Bingo n' Rusti Get Carry-Out from adventure journal #8 is my favorite thing to come out of the EU. Sullustan cargo hauler is a great ship.
Last edited by griff on Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | To keep the Thrawn Trilogy would be to keep Jacen and Jaina, which I doubt they will. These characters come with too much continuity baggage and fan expectations. |
You can keep the Thrawn Trilogy and the characters without keeping the baggage. They weren't old enough to really do anything by the end of The Last Command. | Whill wrote: | | I think it is best if fans start to accept the loss of Thrawn from official canon, if official canon is important to you. You will still be free to choose Thrawn and disregard the new films in your personal canon, or perhaps even enjoy both universes despite their differences. |
This is my key point. I have little use for "canon" except in Biblical settings. I accept good storytelling, reject things that conflict with it, and ignore most of the rest of it. This applies to Star Wars, Halo, Firefly, MSNBC, and pretty much any other source of fictitious media .
It's also something basically everyone in the gamemasters forum ought to be able to do, since we are engaged in writing our own canon all the time. I find it drops my blood pressure from the astronomical, to mere volcanic levels.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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I think any speculation we do here is premature. Depending on what Disney does with the EU, it may be well-nigh impossible to reintegrate the existing EU into whatever they do with it. We'll just have to wait and see.
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griff
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The lame resurrections of Palpatine and Boba Fett |
Youtube Robot chicken Star Wars Fett defeated, Going out like a punk, Fett's back from the dead, Episode VII Boba on the hunt.
That was on only resurrection story that made any sense, and I'd totally accept it.
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