Dsp or not. Torture (BEING the one getting!)

[garhkal]

Say your party gets captured and tortured. BUT the torturer is a sadistic one that rather than harm YOU, he harms someone else while asking you questions.
Would someone who does NOT speak (or if the truth is already known and they are getting tested to see if they lie) and someone else suffers cause of it, should that warrant gaining a DSP?

As a slightly linked q.. What damage would you give to someone on a torture rack (arms and legs getting pulled in opposite directions by pneumatic or other forms of motive means while chains are wrapped around limbs)?
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[Quetzacotl]

Depends on the situation. If whatever he get's asked is some kind of important information that could lead to more people suffering and the character is struggling with not talking because of the other person who get's tortured, I don't think that this should give a DSP.

But if the character is like "I don't care what happens to him, just keep torturing that person" (and it isn't for show in hoping that this leads to them stopping torturing that person because they don't think that they will get any information), then yeah, it might warrant a dps.

Bottom line, in most cases I wouldn't give a DSP for that.

[shootingwomprats]

I agree with Quetzacotl. This is really going to be a judgement call. Obviously if the person is not talking because giving up the information would put additional people at risk? Hell that's heroic! If he is not talking because his mission is more involved than just himself? Not as heroic, but certainly noble.

I definitely think these would be opportunities for some tortuous roleplaying (pun intended) for the person. He should agonize over this decision. It should come to him, floating to the surface of his awareness as flashbacks from time to time. It is a truly horrid situation to be in.

This is a PERFECT opportunity for the dark side to be tempting him. "You know, you could call on the dark side, put a beat down on these guys. They deserve it. And think, the only person who gets hurt are the bad guys and yourself. And you can handle it. The person your want to protect will be saved. Its worth it, take that Force Point ..."

As for damage, this again depends. I personally would run the scene out as long as dramatically appropriate, then do a cut scene, have him back in his cell or at the next appropriate seen and make him Wound 1 and call it a day. If your extremely vicious you could have him at Wound 2 or Incapacitated. Again, it really depends on the direction you want the story to go.
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[lurker]

Ok, from my unique back ground (and all the fun training I got to go through over 20 + years in the military), even answering simple 'non important' questions in this situation leads quickly down a very bad path ... First it gets you started talking and answering things which gets you used to talking and answering questions so it is even easier to answer the next question ...The classic slippery slope problem... Then, and more dangerously, it shows the bad guys what button to use to get you to open your mouth, so next time they simply just go to that point to start and things go worse from there. with that, I wouldn't give them a DFP for keeping his mouth shut. I'd even say give him a FP or some CPs if he DOES keep his mouth shut.

SWR ... rgr on the tortuous roleplaying there, and Dark force temptation ! I was famous in my college classes for playing devil's advocate and that would be right up my alley !!!

A little rabbit for you all to chase on this one is turning on the one being tortured and say to them 'look, he is not only letting you go through this, but benefiting from your suffering ... He has pointed you out and selling you out right now ... why do you think I'm doing this to you ... are you sure you don't have something to say about him?

As for damage ... A little secret, it is more effective to use mind games and 'light' damage than real hard damage. It actually hurts worse to be slapped than it is to get punched hard. It may be counter intuitive, but from experience its true. Also, if someone is actually hurt, they must heal up before they are used again. if it is bumps bruises and minor (but painful) damage, they will be ready to be played with again the next day. From that, don't worry about the real damage you are giving out to, make it some stacking stun and just run with it.

Of course, the sadist level of a guy (which actually isn't effective at truly getting good info) will cross that line and do real long lasting damage without worrying about the info they get. Just look at Vietnam, they would come in and break someone's arm without asking them a question. Then let them try and set it on their own to see if they could. Then 3 months later come back break the same arm to see if it was easier to break, if it broke in the same place etc and then again see if they could reset the arm again or give up and let it heal any which way. Wash rinse repeat for years and years. Worse than that, the NAZIs some of what they did is beyond what I can even imagine (which is saying something ,,,) For that kind of torture, just give out any damage up to the edge of death. Again, this is an area for great role playing, but you may be going to a darker place than you or your players want to in a 'fun game' ...
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[vanir]

Well the thing about interrogation is that it is heavily based in intimidation, however at its most extreme (torture), the terrifying thought to place in the mind of the subject is that all lines are already crossed and simply no longer exist. This extremity might be characterised for example, by cutting a finger off the subject prior to asking any questions. Once the reality of having pieces of his body removed settles in, they're pretty intimidated. And intimidation is a symbiote of interrogation...

As for subject morality under these conditions the simple reality is don't create a false dichotomy of two possible answers, it's not about answer or don't answer it's about maintaining passive resistance if you have classified info to protect, which will ultimately be impossible however you will do what you do as best you can. There is no lack of morality in this.

What the torturer chooses to do has nothing to do with you. If he gives you a choice, "Say this thing or I will kill this person."
The threat is a non-sequiteur. The decision to murder lay solely upon the individual which commits the murder, no other being can control them. In fact a reasonable likelihood is even if you answered as instructed, they kill the person anyway. It adds to the intimidation. Psychotropics and the physical strains of torture are going to guarantee their answers eventually, it is literally impossible for a simple biological creature to stand up to industrialized torture, metal breaks flesh and the mind is of flesh.

Starvation, extreme long term abuse and confinement, sleep deprivation, psychotropics, psychological warfare, all these will be used then toss in scalpels and forceps?

In game terms I suggest that for a bound, prone torture victim their physical bearing has no relationship with what is about to happen to them. A sadist simply goes to work with mediaeval tools and it doesn't matter who is on the table, they all get cut open the same.

There is an advanced KNO: Torture skill (requires 5D Intimidation), I'd provide special rules when the advanced skill is used. Some I just made up:
eg. torture is rolled against willpower just like intimidation, but torture does physical damage equivalent to the amount an (A)Torture roll exceeds the subject's Willpower roll. A physician is often kept on hand to first aid and revive the victim although ultimately, severe torture will kill.
The difficulty obtained by the Torture roll would represent the extent of the torture, psychotropics, poisons, deprivations, long term abuse and psychological warfare as well as the physical horrors associated with torture.
This difficulty rating adds to the Interrogator's roll (likely the same person but not necessarily), when demanding Intelligence from the subject, quickly making it virtually impossible to resist.
Due to the real damage inflicted by severe torture it is smart for professional torturers to graduate their technique with a subject over a period of time, stepping up the severity of the torture in stages so as not to exceed the subject's Willpower roll by too much torture value. Treated as physical damage, a Torture of 16+ more than the Willpower roll will instantly slay the victim and a clinician won't be of much help. But if the torturer elects he can set a difficulty rating of the torture value, eg. perform a mundane toothpicks under the nails at an easy difficulty rating, the torturer only needs to roll about 7 to establish an easy but even if he has 5D and rolls 17 the Willpower roll only needs about 7 to resist because an Easy difficulty was electively established by the torturer (thus electively limiting damage of torture until subject willpower can be guaged over a number of torture sessions).

[cheshire]

[lurker]

[garhkal]

[DougRed4]

Lots of interesting and well written stuff in this thread.

As for those players who could just ignore an NPC getting tortured: well, let's just say I'm very appreciative of my players, and don't think I'd game very much or very long with the sorts who would behave like this. We used to have one power gamer/munchkin-type who did stuff like that, but he provided so much humor that he kept us entertained.

Since Nelson Mandela's death there's been a lot of specials on his life that I've watched. While he was imprisoned for 27 years he refused to show his captors anything in the way of emotions. So whether it was devastating news (like how his son had just been killed in a car crash) or potentially something good (like when they tried to ply him with food and wine), he refused to even allow his face to change. He became expressionless, simply to not allow his captors to figure him out and win the "mind game". If a PC was using tactics like this, I certainly wouldn't penalize him. Overall I can't see giving somebody a DSP (usually) for the cases mentioned, but as so often is the case, sometimes it depends on the circumstances and situation.
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[vanir]

There is the threat of DSP when being tortured or any other significant event. It's an opportunity like any other to prove character or to fail in the claims of character with what you actually do in the situation.

Failing to be invulnerable should not warrant a DSP. That includes entrapment and other psychological manoeuvring. Being captured, bound and prone you have no real power of decision over your own body anymore and that is something to accept without moral consequence.

But would you volunteer information to lessen your own suffering? Not being forced to give response, but actually helping the enemy willingly for a personal result.
eg. an interrogator might use torture and psychotropic, poisonous drugs to force to you answer direct questions without any self control or rational discipline. No DSP.
However an interrogator might ask one question and you answer several more trying to get on his good side and lessen the torture. This is a gamble with the subjects of the information you have, whenever making a deal with someone that already has total power of life and death over you, there's always the real chance they don't keep their end. Possible DSP for placing your safety ahead of others you're sworn to protect, for a very slim chance of improving your own situation.

You could also risk a DSP by engaging the torturer too personally, trying to play his game another way. People have developed Stockholm Syndrome in this way. You could start off boasting that torture doesn't bother you and you actually like it so he won't be getting any information out of you. But after weeks of it you might find you have actually reprogrammed yourself to like it and along the way completely lost touch with the way a normal brain thinks and experiences sensory input. You might just go and mess up your own brain programming so severely that you end up a wacko, a very dangerous wacko even if freed from the torture.

These things would seem to represent DSP.

[lurker]

[garhkal]

So would it be willpower to resist getting that wacko??
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