The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Starfighters Vs Capships
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Starfighters Vs Capships Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Starfighters Vs Capships Reply with quote

I want to run this by you guys, get some feedback.

For the most part Fighters can't destroy cap ships any more than the Spitfires damaged the Bismark. What I do is have them attack specific targets on the Star Destroyer, like a turbolaser battery. I also figure cannons and certain systems, like individual shield generators or tractor beams, as one class size smaller for defensive purposes. (Damage resist and difficulty to hit) They still do capital scale damage for offensive purposes.

This accomplishes two things:

1) Fighters can now do damage to Cap ships without destroying them creating the need for cap ships to have fighter screens.

2) It makes the tubolaser batteries harder to hit. Since they're the same scale as the starfighters they are no longer as easy to hit as the entire capital ship, and they no longer get the damage resistance bonus that capital ships get.

It's still fairly useless to do an attack on a Impstar, taking out 120 cannons is going to take some time, though taking out their shield generators would be key. However, going up against a Corellian Corvette, Starfighters can render it weaponless in a few rounds.


The other major change I make is that torpedoes are capital scale and missiles are fighter scale. This means that hitting another starfighter with a proton torpedo is next to impossible, but you can do a world of damage against capital ships. On the other hand, if you're going up against other starfighter scale vehicles, missiles would make you devastating. Knowing what your projected mission is should change how you loadout your hardpoints.

I think I explained it fairly well but I may not have. If you have questions please ask.

And as always, let me know what you think.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what 'resistance' value do you assign to any of those emplacements? How do they dodge (since they can't move)? IMo shifting them all down to SF scale makes it TOO easy to dismember a cap ship of weaponry.
Take a Rendill stardrive dreadnought, one of the more common cap ships out there.

It has a total of 40 weapons
10 Turbolaser Cannons
Fire Arc: 5 left, 5 right

20 Quad Turbolaser Cannons
Fire Arc: 6 front, 7 left, 7 right

10 Turbolaser Batteries
Fire Arc: 5 front, 5 back

Since none can dodge (they are static placements, therefore the difficulty to shoot them should be just the range diff (moderate for medium range, easy for short), Half a squadron of fighters can easily neuter one side of firepower in 2 rounds.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
entropy
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't posted much here lately, but this question intrigues me. I'm puzzled by reversing the rules on torpedoes and missiles. Did you reverse the ranges as well?

Starfighter vs. capital battles have been a staple of our campaigns for as long as I can remember. I personally find it more exciting to take out a corvette with a tramp freighter's well-placed torpedo than to defeat a swarm of tie fighters. As a GM, I find that the battles where the PCs manage to take out something they shouldn't with a lucky shot, particularly multiple sixes on the wild die for damage, are the battles they remember the best, and continue talking about years later.

The rules make it fairly easy for this to occur. The damage die cap is only 3, and torpedoes pack quite a punch if you can fly in close enough. The book lists their range as 1/3/7, which means flying through several rounds of turbolaser fire. This gives you a reasonable chance against a damaged Corvette, but an ISD is unlikely to be hurt.

The capital ships need their fighter escort to prevent this from happening, or at least make it painful. A decent pilot in a ship with a few dice maneuverability can dodge turbolaser fire all day, but with enough starfighter scale lasers coming at you, one of those TIEs is bound to get a lucky shot in.

The other equalizer is the command skill. A couple bonus dice to hit and damage can overcome a scale gap and turn a long shot into a 50/50 chance. Be careful when using this as GM, though. If your ISD commander orders 15 turbolaser emplacements to combine fire on the PCs ship, their pilot is going to run out of force points trying to dodge 4D+2 skill plus 4D fire control plus 5D command bonus, even from a capital ship. It may be realistic, but it's not much fun.

This turned out longer than I thought it would, but I guess my thought is that it's more fun to get a lucky shot every once in a while that takes down the big bad guy than spend a bunch of rounds grinding down its weapons so it can escape and get repaired for the next battle. Be prepared with an exciting, and just barely plausible, description of the torpedo flying up the exhaust port and the huge explosion seconds later as the corvette splits apart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few good points Garhkal. Multiple-Action Penalties stack up on starfighters, and stack up quickly.

The dreadnaught will be firing. The Starfighters have to dodge.

The Starfighters need to maneuver themselves to get their forward arc to bear before they can take a shot.

The dreadnaught is moving while all this is going on, so their targets are not stationary. They still need to beat the pilot's dodge roll to hit.

When dealing with a capital ship you need to get through, or under, their shields. If they don't take out the shield generators first they're just putting on a light show. Unless they have ion weapons.

Anything else they want to do, like angle the deflectors, jam communications, get a sensor read on the ship, all of these things add up.

I generally assign a value of 4D damage resist for cannon emplacements. I know most weapons have a body of 2D but I figure emplacements have some armor to them as their designers, hopefully, knew they were going to be shot at.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy, I didn't reverse the rules on torpedoes and missiles, I changed them.

RAW there are capital scale missiles and capital scale torpedoes as well as starfighter scale versions of the same. As it stands here the difference between missiles and torpedoes is that missiles are called missiles while torpedoes are called torpedoes. They are effectively the same thing.

My change is that torpedoes are all capital scale and missiles are all starfighter scale. So under my change, in your scenario, the starship would use missiles, which still pack a wallop (8-9D starfighter scale)

What this also allows is for ships to carry different loads. On the deathstar run all the fighters were armed with torpedoes so if they got the chance they could try to destroy it. On a normal run I would assume Y & B-Wings would load torpedoes while A & X-Wings load missiles.

I haven't worked out the exact ratio, but a starfighter can load less torpedoes than missiles.

The other thing to consider with this change is that torpedoes are now larger, making them easier for other starfighters to shoot down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I almost forgot one of the key points here: angling deflector shields.

Starfighters force Capital ships to keep a few pips on each quadrant of their shields. Otherwise they'd be able to stack their shields between themselves and the other capital ship. This change gives them a reason to do that. Without their shields up starfighters will eat away at their weapons on the exposed side.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)


Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I'm late to the conversation, but there's advanced targeting rules in the Rules Companion and Pirates and Privateers, IIRC.

The way they read damage is worked out normally while the shooter takes a penalty to hit.

I would reduce the resistance roll but not to starship scale; perhaps -1d to -3d or so (depending on the location).
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

entropy wrote:
Be careful when using this as GM, though. If your ISD commander orders 15 turbolaser emplacements to combine fire on the PCs ship, their pilot is going to run out of force points trying to dodge 4D+2 skill plus 4D fire control plus 5D command bonus, even from a capital ship. It may be realistic, but it's not much fun.


Not really. That cap ship get's capped at a 3 on each die to hit the pc's ship, so even maxing (no 6 on the wild die), the most they can get would be 39. Most pc groups who do something that audacious are around 7-8d for their piloting + 2d worth of maneuvering. So their max is closer to 52 to 59.
If you use scale dice vice scale caps, its even more pronounced. 4d+2 gunnery, +4d F/control, +5d command gives them 13d to shoot. Even 6d pilots (which a pc can start out with easily) gives them 14d to dodge.

Kytross wrote:
A few good points Garhkal. Multiple-Action Penalties stack up on starfighters, and stack up quickly.

The dreadnaught will be firing. The Starfighters have to dodge.

But remember, 1 dodge roll applies to both the cap ship AND the fighters..

Kytross wrote:

The Starfighters need to maneuver themselves to get their forward arc to bear before they can take a shot.


I'll give you that part.

Kytross wrote:
The dreadnaught is moving while all this is going on, so their targets are not stationary. They still need to beat the pilot's dodge roll to hit.


Which is not too hard since most PC gunners start at around 5-6d gunnery. Add in 2-3d fire control and they easily beat out the 4d pilot +1d maneuvering cap ship npcs get.

Kytross wrote:
Anything else they want to do, like angle the deflectors, jam communications, get a sensor read on the ship, all of these things add up.


That depends on whether we are just on about single seat fighters, with no R2 unit (which both x and y wings have, so the droid can be doing those actions), or a freighter loaded out with big weapons (which is what i mostly see PC groups use vice lots of them in fighters).
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2272
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying this discussion and will consider this as a possible house rule down the road.


garhkal, what did you mean by the cap ship's dice being capped?
_________________
Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Be careful when using this as GM, though. If your ISD commander orders 15 turbolaser emplacements to combine fire on the PCs ship, their pilot is going to run out of force points trying to dodge 4D+2 skill plus 4D fire control plus 5D command bonus, even from a capital ship. It may be realistic, but it's not much fun.


Turbolasers have a crew of 1-3 depending on what kind of turbolasers are being fired. Assuming the commander had a command skill of 15-45D, depending on which turbolasers are being fired, so he could command that many troops, now those 15 shots fired (each an individual action) has to split the total bonus of 5-15D. That is, if I'm reading the 2nd edition R&E RAW correctly. Under optimum conditions that's 1D command bonus per shot fired.

Is there a different set of rules for combined actions during fleet combat that I don't know about? Am I reading the RAW wrong?


Quote:
Not really. That cap ship get's capped at a 3 on each die to hit the pc's ship, so even maxing (no 6 on the wild die), the most they can get would be 39. Most pc groups who do something that audacious are around 7-8d for their piloting + 2d worth of maneuvering. So their max is closer to 52 to 59.
If you use scale dice vice scale caps, its even more pronounced. 4d+2 gunnery, +4d F/control, +5d command gives them 13d to shoot. Even 6d pilots (which a pc can start out with easily) gives them 14d to dodge.


That 14D to dodge gets eaten up pretty quick by MAPs (Multiple Action Penalties) Two shots fired and you're down to 12D.

I agree on the rest of your comments, though I will be commenting on the single freighter against a Star Destroyer concept. It's part of what makes fighters a threat to Capital ships, and why most of the Clone Wars ships were carriers. I have extrapolated that the Empire learned from the Clone Wars that it is more cost effective to produce huge capital ships with powerful shield generators and smaller fighter screens than it is to create carriers that carry 192 fighters.

As long as a Capital ship can keep its shields even then the fighters need to have ion cannons to even be a partial threat, or aim up to do some combined actions to create massed fire attacked. The problem with massed fire attacks is that fighters need to stay in formation to do them. If fighters are in formations they can't dodge, so they lose their dodge advantage over capital ships, which in turn means that the 100+ cannons on an ISD would destroy them.

A fighter attack on an ISD, preferably by a squadron of B-Wings or Y-Wings, would target the shield generators first, with their ion cannon, taking targets of opportunity with their ion cannon along the way. Once the shields are down the B-wings can bring those 7D laser cannons to bear and start wreaking havoc on the ISD's weapon emplacements and tractor beams.


I'd also like to address the unasked question, do capital ship shields get the scale bonus? Yes. They have to. 1D of capital ship shields soaks up 1D of cap ship scale damage. If capital ship shields soaked up damage on starfighter scale then why would anyone bother putting them on Capital ships in the first place?


Now, on to the loophole. The military grade starfighter scale freighter/shuttle/attack boat. The military grade starfighter scale attack boat would be one of the best attack ships against capital ships. It has all of the advantages of a starfighter, all of the scale bonuses and none of the MAPS issues that pile up. 1 crew man per gun, just like in a cap ship, so no MAPS there. One pilot who can devote each round to a full dodge. A shields station, a sensors station and a Captain to make a command roll each round to give out some bonus die as he sees fit. Something specifically designed to attack capital ship weapons. Something with stats like this:

Imperial Customs Frigate
Craft: Rendili StarDrive’s
Imperial Customs Frigate
Affiliation: Empire
Era: Rise of the Empire
Source: Pirates & Privateers (page 83),
The Far Orbit Project (page 77)
Type: Imperial customs vessel
Scale: Starfighter
Length: 35 meters
Skill: Space transports:
Imperial customs frigate
Crew: 6, gunners: 6, skeleton: 3/+10
Crew Skill: Varies, generally 4D
Passengers: 10
Cargo Capacity: 100 metric tons
Consumables: 3 months
Cost: Whatever the black market can bear
Hyperdrive Multiplier: x2
Hyperdrive Backup: x8
Nav Computer: Yes
Maneuverability: 2D
Space: 5
Atmosphere: 295; 850 kmh
Hull: 3D+1
Shields: 3D
Sensors:
Passive: 30/1D
Scan: 60/2D
Search: 90/4D
Focus: 4/4D+1
Weapons:
6 Heavy Laser Cannons
Fire Arc: Turret
Crew: 1
Skill: Starship gunnery
Fire Control: 2D
Space Range: 1-3/12/25
Atmosphere Range:
100-300/1.3/2.5 km
Damage: 5D


I'd make a few changes to get it into fighting shape. Get rid of the cargo space and put that into the engines, both maneuvering and speed. Also, switch the laser cannons over to ion cannons. Send twelve of those bad boys up against an ISD and see which side goes running for the hills. Maybe add in a torpedo launcher or make some of the guns laser turrets so they can do more than disable after the shields are down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Darth Ginzain
Lieutenant
Lieutenant


Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple quick questions first. Which version of scaling do you use, because it sounds like 2E and not 2E R&E. There's a HUGE difference in them. Also it sounds like you're using 2E R&E for command?? WHich does prevent massive combinations of fighters/weapons.

I like the idea of dropping emplacements to starfighter scale and allowing snub fighters to take apart a capital ship without actually structually damaging it significantly. Moving torpedoes to capital ship scale is dangerous. Those things still doing 9d? The hull on an ISD is only 7d and torps ignore shields. Which means every hit will do some hull damage to the ISD. Do you intend for capital ships to be destroyed by snub fighters?

Also with regards to shields, if I'm shooting my 6d quad lasers at the turbolaser, do I have to shoot through the capital ship scale shields first?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14171
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:

garhkal, what did you mean by the cap ship's dice being capped?


2E basic has it where the smaller target shooting the larger one gets to count their dice as normal, but the larger one dodging get's a cap on what it can count (scale difference). BUT if the larger one is hit, the smaller one's damage is capped. Basically the same thing as the 2e revised dice pool adding, but less of a 'buckets of dice' issue.
So SF shooting cap has no scale cap on it's to hit, but has a 3 cap on its damage. So a 9d torp can do a max of 26 damage (with no rollover on the wild die).
A cap ship gets a 2 cap on it's dodge roll though to avoid being shot.
So yes the cap ship is moving, but it's dodge is restricted.

Quote:
As long as a Capital ship can keep its shields even then the fighters need to have ion cannons to even be a partial threat, or aim up to do some combined actions to create massed fire attacked. The problem with massed fire attacks is that fighters need to stay in formation to do them. If fighters are in formations they can't dodge, so they lose their dodge advantage over capital ships, which in turn means that the 100+ cannons on an ISD would destroy them.


Not really.. by the 2e rules the only action you can do when combining OTHER than the combined action, is any sort of reaction.. So they can dodge.

Quote:
Now, on to the loophole. The military grade starfighter scale freighter/shuttle/attack boat. The military grade starfighter scale attack boat would be one of the best attack ships against capital ships. It has all of the advantages of a starfighter, all of the scale bonuses and none of the MAPS issues that pile up. 1 crew man per gun, just like in a cap ship, so no MAPS there. One pilot who can devote each round to a full dodge. A shields station, a sensors station and a Captain to make a command roll each round to give out some bonus die as he sees fit. Something specifically designed to attack capital ship weapons. Something with stats like this:


Hence why a lot of DM's have it that the full dodge of the ship shooting ALSO hampers its own gunners shooting back (really wish the rules addressed this).
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Ginzain, I'm using 2E R&E. I may need to get a copy of 2E and read through it.

Quote:
I like the idea of dropping emplacements to starfighter scale and allowing snub fighters to take apart a capital ship without actually structually damaging it significantly.


That's the whole idea. RAW, fighters are no threat to cap ships, and the B-Wing is a joke. By dropping emplacements down a scale level they become a threat to capital ships, and make a starfighter campaign more fun without unbalancing everything.

Quote:
Moving torpedoes to capital ship scale is dangerous. Those things still doing 9d? The hull on an ISD is only 7d and torps ignore shields. Which means every hit will do some hull damage to the ISD. Do you intend for capital ships to be destroyed by snub fighters?


Yes, just like a single torpedo launched from a dive bomber in WWII could damage a battleship. Theoretically.

If you're going up against an ISD then you have to get through it's 72 fighter screen. And those 72 fighters can easily shoot down a torpedo. If you're close enough to fire a torpedo at a cap ship without anyone getting a chance to shoot it down then you're probably inside the blast radius. 9D capital scale damage is going to take out any fighter.

Smaller ships, like Corellian Gunships have starfighter scale weapons and can target torpedoes on their own.

Lastly, torpedoes should take up more room than missiles. I haven't decided on a ratio yet, but let's say it's four to one. So if an fighter can carry 8 missiles they can only carry 2 torpedoes.

And yes, the way I play it you would have to get through the Capship's shields before you could take out an emplacement. Unless you're using ion cannons. Or you're under the shields.


Garhkal, I look forward to replying to your response when I have a bit more time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

2E basic has it where the smaller target shooting the larger one gets to count their dice as normal, but the larger one dodging get's a cap on what it can count (scale difference). BUT if the larger one is hit, the smaller one's damage is capped. Basically the same thing as the 2e revised dice pool adding, but less of a 'buckets of dice' issue.
So SF shooting cap has no scale cap on it's to hit, but has a 3 cap on its damage. So a 9d torp can do a max of 26 damage (with no rollover on the wild die).
A cap ship gets a 2 cap on it's dodge roll though to avoid being shot.
So yes the cap ship is moving, but it's dodge is restricted.


Makes sense, good to know. I happen to like a huge pool of dice, it conveys just how good the shot is or how futile it is to try and get through a cap ship's armor.

Usually in my games my players roll at most 5 or 6 dice at a go. When they get to add 6D to their to hit against a cap ship they really get a kick out of it.

Quote:
As long as a Capital ship can keep its shields even then the fighters need to have ion cannons to even be a partial threat, or aim up to do some combined actions to create massed fire attacked. The problem with massed fire attacks is that fighters need to stay in formation to do them. If fighters are in formations they can't dodge, so they lose their dodge advantage over capital ships, which in turn means that the 100+ cannons on an ISD would destroy them.


Quote:
Not really.. by the 2e rules the only action you can do when combining OTHER than the combined action, is any sort of reaction.. So they can dodge.


But if they dodge their forward arc is no longer aligned for the mass fire attempt, as a GM I've got to step in and make a call like that. It's suicidal for starfighters to attack cap ships in massed formation, despite what they write in the X-Wing books.

Quote:
Now, on to the loophole. The military grade starfighter scale freighter/shuttle/attack boat. The military grade starfighter scale attack boat would be one of the best attack ships against capital ships. It has all of the advantages of a starfighter, all of the scale bonuses and none of the MAPS issues that pile up. 1 crew man per gun, just like in a cap ship, so no MAPS there. One pilot who can devote each round to a full dodge. A shields station, a sensors station and a Captain to make a command roll each round to give out some bonus die as he sees fit. Something specifically designed to attack capital ship weapons. Something with stats like this:


Quote:
Hence why a lot of DM's have it that the full dodge of the ship shooting ALSO hampers its own gunners shooting back (really wish the rules addressed this).


A good GM would raise the difficulty of the to hit for the gunners one or two difficulty levels. That's just part of the game, a more difficult shot requires a higher difficulty level. At least if they're in turrets they won't be out of their firing arcs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kytross
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 782

PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other thing this allows is to face the same Cap ship over and over.

The first time they face the ISD Decimation they barely escape with their lives.

The second time they're able to do serious damage to the Decimation's fighter wing.

The third time they manage to drop its shields and force it to retreat.

When they finally destroy the Decimation they have a long fought victory.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0