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ZzaphodD
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 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Astrogation Maps |
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Im looking for astrogation maps over the galaxy (or as many small maps as possible). What Im looking for are those like in the Elrood book where the hyperspace lanes are mapped with a travel time between system beside the lane.
I find all these astrogation charts, with just a bunch of numbers. Maps of the galaxy with hyperpace lanes on them can also be found. But I cant seem to find maps with travel times indicated. |
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Rerun941
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Nearly all of the best maps in my collection can be found here:
http://starwarsatlas.uw.hu/thelist.htm
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Great! I have found these sometime before. Did you make these?
So, if one could just get the travel time between systems from somewhere and jot them down next to the hyperlanes. For example, in the SE map, between Adarlon and Karideph in the Minos Cluster there should be noted 65h (or 2d 17h). This is not a problem, but what if you want to go from Adarlon to Sluis Van. With the above 65h travel time in mind, does that then take 9 to 10 times as long? Sure this is through more than two sectors, but your still not even 1/3 towards another major trade route.
On a side note:
One thing I have noticed before is that under 'Northwest Quadrant' it shows the Northeast again. Is that a linking error, or is the Northwest lost?
Also, I have noticed that the sectors are small white areas, leaving the majority of space and a lot of system sectorless. Is that on purpose, or just that you havent gottem to them yet? |
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Rerun941
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't make any of those.
My rule of thumb was to use the information from the Lords of the Expanse boxed set which said it took 6 weeks to go from the Tapani Sector to the Kathol sector with a x1 hyperdrive. This may seem rather fast, but it is one of the well-travelled, main hyperlanes in the galaxy. Other, less common hyperspace routes should increase travel times considerably.
Your mileage may vary... generally hyperspace travel occurs at the speed of the plot.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Astrogation Maps |
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That MODI is a map-making genius.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Im looking for astrogation maps over the galaxy (or as many small maps as possible). What Im looking for are those like in the Elrood book where the hyperspace lanes are mapped with a travel time between system beside the lane. |
Good luck. Only some RPG supplements have such maps, or even system grid charts. The vast majority of the galaxy, even the Empire, has never been mapped out with hyperspace travel times. You get some galactic benchmarks and specific detailed info on a few places (like Elrood Sector), but the rest is up to the GM. When WEG SW RPG 1E first came out, the travel times were in days. Then they released an update stating that was way too slow and made those same numbers hours instead of days. Then various authors made their charts with no real attempt at making everything consistent. And some never made sense to me in the first place. I personally think it is totally wack that a x1 ship could travel from the major Core World Correllia to such a remote Tatooine in 4 hours, major route or not.
Something established as a part of canon (partially from the RPGs) is the idea of major hyperspace lanes and how well-known a route is. In general, I think that ships rarely ever go directly from A to B unless they are both on a major route. I think in the SW universe it would often makes the most sense to connect to a nearby more well-travelled route, then get close to the target system, then go back to lesser routes to get to your target. So one "jump" may actually include several turns through many systems. The time is takes to travel a lesser-known route is generally more than a better known route.
I personally have been in contact with one of the authors of The Essential Star Wars Atlas who is in charge of the ongoing up-keep of the canon atlas of the EU SW galaxy, and he emphatically states that all specific hyperspace travel times, from the RPGs or fiction, are not canon. They tried their best to map out a galaxy that makes the most sense with respect to the greatest possible number of sources, many of which conflict with each other. The Tapani to Kathol benchmark that Rerun mentioned make a lot of sense with so much material, but then you have Obi-Wan in the movies zooming around the galaxy in what seems to be very short times. Maybe the Jedi had the secret Wookiee routes. There are always going to be contradictions so to settle that they just declared that no travel times are canon.
My point is, you're mostly on your own for galactic travel times. As Rerun stated, the GM should make the travel times correlate to the speed of the plot (that's certainly what Lucas does). The times don't have to be all plotted out in advance. You can come up with them as needed, meaning you dont have to know how long it will take to get from Adarlon to Sluis Van until it actually comes up in the game. If you want to maintain internal consitency, then record that time so it is a basis for what happenes later on a return trip. But keep in mind they are not even constants set in stone. Everything in the galaxy is always moving (revolving around the galactic center, etc.) so astronomical phenomena can change positions and that may increase or decrease times. So basically, the GM can always change the travel times based on the needs of the plot of each adventure if needed, so you are never really pinned down. But I understand the desire to just at least have all possible published guidelines to base your game on.
I propose that we gather our resources and make a master chart of all known hyperspace travel time data available. We can even use WOTC data to get some prequel systems in the mix. It will still have a lot of blanks to fill in by each GM, but it would be a start.
I believe all the WEG maps with travel times on them are as follows:
Ringali Shell (intersection of the Perlemian Trade Route and the Hydian Way, Core Worlds)
Tapani Sector (Colonies)
region surrounding the Kira Run (border of Expansion Region and Mid-Rim)
region surrounding the Sisar Run (border of Hutt Sapce and Outer Rim)
all the Kathol Sector maps (Outer Rim)
Gree Enclave (Outer Rim)
Elrood Sector (Outer Rim) I don' t have a list of all system grid charts with hyperspace travel times handy. Anyone else want to contribute to this project?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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I want to start with stating that I dont mind if the travel times are not canon, as long as they seem logical and thought through.
I dont think I can find a galactic map with travel times. But with a selection of maps (like the ones above) and some astrogation charts one can put down some numbers along the major routes. |
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Kemper Boyd
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:58 am Post subject: |
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One idea I took from Battlestar Galactica is that there is a "Red Line" for hyperspace travel. Calculating a hyperspace route beyond a certain distance is dangerous because of inaccuracies creeping into the calculations due to the galaxy moving.
The main travel routes in the galaxy are main travel routes because they are more stable over time, which means you can do longer jumps safely. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I want to start with stating that I dont mind if the travel times are not canon, as long as they seem logical and thought through. |
I don't mind either. But that was my point in even bringing up canon: They are not canon because that they may not be logical and thought through.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I dont think I can find a galactic map with travel times. But with a selection of maps (like the ones above) and some astrogation charts one can put down some numbers along the major routes. |
Yeah, I think that coming up with the major routes times first would be a reasonable start. Rerun gave one major route benchmark. Anyone know any others?
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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So are there any definitions in the game (WEG or D20) of hyperlanes.
Major lanes
Normal lanes (better name than 'normal'?)
Minor lanes
'Find your own' (ie no lane).
If you divide all lanes in these three categories (Find your own not being a lane) and use some known travel times you should be able to get some numbers for most of the lanes on the galactic map. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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From Wookieepedia and the Essential Atlas...
The five "Major Trade Routes of the Galaxy" (or "super-hyperroutes") is definitely the highest tier
Rimma Trade Route, established in 5,500 BBY, was a major trade route than ran from Abregado-rae in the Core Worlds to Kathol sector in the Outer Rim.
Perlemian Trade Route was a vital trade hyperroute that, along with the Corellian Run, made up the border of The Slice.
Hydian Way, the only hyperlane that crossed the entire galaxy.
Corellian Run - Starting at Coruscant, this hyperroute looped around the Deep Core, went through Corellia, and continued on to pass through Tatooine before terminating near the distant Outer Rim world of Rothana.
The Corellian Trade Spine began at Corellia and headed in the direction of Duro. It eventually passed by the Greater Javin before tapering off.
Underneath that tier, from Lords of the Expanse...
Galactic Routes (i.e. Giju Passage, Shapani Bypass)
Major Routes (i.e. Procopian Shipping Lane)
Minor Routes
The rules say the difficulty of an astrogation check is based on how well known the route is, etc. It says that the difficulty can be from very easy to heroic, so I was thinking that the difficulty of the astrogation check could maybe correlate to the tiers of the lowest tiered route that the jump requires (as a base). Maybe staying on Major Trade Routes would be a Very Easy. Staying on Major Trade Routes and Galactic Routes might be Easy. Including travel on a Major Route could be Moderate, and travelling on a minor Trade Route could up it to Difficult. "Find it yourself" could be Very Difficult or Heroic. Or something like that. Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops boy! (OK, I know bringing up dificulties I am veering off course from discussing travel times. But it just popped into my head while typing.)
Looking at the Core Worlds is the Gazzeteer in R&E, Coruscant to Correllia is on a Major Route is 4 hrs. Coruscant to Alderaan includes a Major Trade Route and a Galactic Route, and that is 16 hrs...
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Rerun941
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: |
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In my current Elrood campaign, I'm using something very similar, Whill.
Based on the Elrood map:
1. Rimma Trade Route = V. Easy
2. Coyn Route = Easy
3. The main E-D run = Moderate
4. "Lesser known routes" like to Lanthrym = Difficult
5. Routes to identified planets, but don't have lines (e.g. Merisee to Almaran) = V. Diff
6. Routes to unidentified planets (aka exploration) = Heroic
(I could see justification for shifting the difficulties of 3-6 one level easier based on campaign flavor... your mileage may vary.)
Meanwhile, back at travel times. Don't forget that most civilian craft in the Rebellion Era have x2 hyperdrives and most military craft have x1 hyperdrives. So the Rimma trade route would take 12 weeks to traverse with a x2 hyperdrive...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | In my current Elrood campaign, I'm using something very similar, Whill.
Based on the Elrood map:
1. Rimma Trade Route = V. Easy
2. Coyn Route = Easy
3. The main E-D run = Moderate
4. "Lesser known routes" like to Lanthrym = Difficult
5. Routes to identified planets, but don't have lines (e.g. Merisee to Almaran) = V. Diff
6. Routes to unidentified planets (aka exploration) = Heroic
(I could see justification for shifting the difficulties of 3-6 one level easier based on campaign flavor... your mileage may vary.)
Meanwhile, back at travel times. Don't forget that most civilian craft in the Rebellion Era have x2 hyperdrives and most military craft have x1 hyperdrives. So the Rimma trade route would take 12 weeks to traverse with a x2 hyperdrive... |
Thanks for this info. So, basically if you are at point A and want to go to point Z (ie a know system but not a normal travel route) youre looking at heroic levels? The sane thing would be to go to the nearest 'major' lane (from most systems there would be at least a minor lane to a system along a major lane) and then follow that to Z (or as close as possible, perhaps again going the last part on a minor lane).
The above difficulties, for example the main E-D lane is moderate, also reflects individual differances in difficulties. Even if the E-D lane should be one of the most travelled in the sector, something makes it more difficult to navigate. A 'general' rule for travel times on major and minor routes should have some variations as well (GM fiat).
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | From Wookieepedia and the Essential Atlas...
The five "Major Trade Routes of the Galaxy" (or "super-hyperroutes") is definitely the highest tier
Rimma Trade Route, established in 5,500 BBY, was a major trade route than ran from Abregado-rae in the Core Worlds to Kathol sector in the Outer Rim.
Perlemian Trade Route was a vital trade hyperroute that, along with the Corellian Run, made up the border of The Slice.
Hydian Way, the only hyperlane that crossed the entire galaxy.
Corellian Run - Starting at Coruscant, this hyperroute looped around the Deep Core, went through Corellia, and continued on to pass through Tatooine before terminating near the distant Outer Rim world of Rothana.
The Corellian Trade Spine began at Corellia and headed in the direction of Duro. It eventually passed by the Greater Javin before tapering off.
Underneath that tier, from Lords of the Expanse...
Galactic Routes (i.e. Giju Passage, Shapani Bypass)
Major Routes (i.e. Procopian Shipping Lane)
Minor Routes
The rules say the difficulty of an astrogation check is based on how well known the route is, etc. It says that the difficulty can be from very easy to heroic, so I was thinking that the difficulty of the astrogation check could maybe correlate to the tiers of the lowest tiered route that the jump requires (as a base). Maybe staying on Major Trade Routes would be a Very Easy. Staying on Major Trade Routes and Galactic Routes might be Easy. Including travel on a Major Route could be Moderate, and travelling on a minor Trade Route could up it to Difficult. "Find it yourself" could be Very Difficult or Heroic. Or something like that. Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops boy! (OK, I know bringing up dificulties I am veering off course from discussing travel times. But it just popped into my head while typing.)
Looking at the Core Worlds is the Gazzeteer in R&E, Coruscant to Correllia is on a Major Route is 4 hrs. Coruscant to Alderaan includes a Major Trade Route and a Galactic Route, and that is 16 hrs... |
So, a general rule could be.
Super Route: V. Easy. Travel time x1
Galactic Route: V-Easy to Easy. Travel time x1,5
Major Route: Easy to Moderate. Travel time x 2
Minor Route: Difficult to V.Difficult. Travel time x4
Travel time above should not be confused with Hyperspace speed of ships. Its for determining the 'normal' travel time from the distance on the galactic map. If we know that a certain trip from A to B along a major route takes 1 day (from an Atrogation gazeteer) we can then calculate what the same distance (on the map) along a Galactic Route would take. The multipliers are of course only suggestions to be used in the example, not based on any checking of any official gaming sources (or canon sources). |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Example of individual variations in travel time: From wookiepedia
"While generally determined by the distance between two planets, hyperspace travel times between two locations seemingly close to one another could be drastically extended by the need to navigate around stellar hazards, such as asteroid fields and nebulae.
An example of this is the journey from Coruscant and Alderaan. In terms of distance, Alderaan was very near to Coruscant. However, it required 16 hours of travel to reach Alderaan due to a section of the route crossing through a part of the largely-uncharted Deep Core which is star-choked and therefore more difficult to navigate in due to its many gravity wells.[6] Ironically, then, it was actually faster to get from Tatooine to Alderaan on the other side of the galaxy. In some cases, intragalactic travels could take days, depending on the distance between two planets and the obstacles between." |
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Barrataria
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Example of individual variations in travel time: From wookiepedia
"While generally determined by the distance between two planets, hyperspace travel times between two locations seemingly close to one another could be drastically extended by the need to navigate around stellar hazards, such as asteroid fields and nebulae.
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I just got the atlas and was excited to see that I am not the only one who wishes for a bit more accessible and consistent hyperspace times. I'm messing with some ideas for a campaign in the Moddell Sector, and the above quote is pretty much exactly what's described in the atlas for that sector too.
I like the approach of "major route=x1" and up... not at all unlike overland movement rate calculations in wargames and other RPGs, where movement into forest or swamp hexes "costs" more.
I'll try to look at the table in the 2E book and compare those to the atlas and the marked routes. .. maybe some more details will show up.
Finally, I am no computer programmer, but it seems to me that with the index in the atlas there would be some way to make a big database that cross-references all the worlds (at least those in the atlas) and returns the base travel time if two planets are entered. Like google maps driving directions, probably complete with instructions to drive over unpaved logging roads  |
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