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garhkal
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 Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: Is it supposed to be Death, or damage for people in ships??/ |
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Page 129 of the R&E rule book (as well as page 109 in the blue book) says a ship that takes 16+ damage is "Destroyed, all on board are killed". BUT when a vehicle takes damage, the passengers on board take damage based on the amt of ship/vehicle damage taken. ALL THE WAY up to 12d for destroyed??
So which is it?
Ship destroyed - everyone dead?
Ship destroyed everyone on takes 12d damage (More than enough to kill most unless on a force point and having high str)??
OR is that passenger damage chart for vehicles/ships In an atmosphere??
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it says 'killed' which would mean like, killed.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'd think it's treated differently for in-atmosphere vehicles, yes- because there's a chance of bailing out. The automatically dead for starships is on the assumption they're in vacuum, and no one's surviving that. Also, starships tend to have larger generators that die in a fiery explosion, wheras ground vehicles can just disintegrate or crash. So I'm guessing the intent was to denote the whole 'destroyed in massive fireball in a vacuum' vs. 'bad crash, but you might be found as a survivor in the wreckage' paradigms of the two types of conveyances.
I.E. A car crash, you can maybe walk away from- your plane breaking up, you won't survive. 
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Last edited by Zarm R'keeg on Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my thought. If you're driving along in your car, and it gets smashed to bits, you could live, but all integrity of the car is gone.
If you are in a spaceship and it gets completely wrecked and smashed to bits and all structural integrity is compromised, then you could conceivably live... for about 30 seconds. Space itself does a number on you.
I think it's the vacuum that makes the biggest difference between a vehicle in atmosphere and a starship.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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So would then those in vac suits, or sealed power armor get the 12d damage, to potentially survive? Or woudl that amt of explosive force/shrapnel compromise the suits enough it does not matter?
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | I'd think it's treated differently for in-atmosphere vehicles, yes- because there's a chance of bailing out. The automatically dead for starships is on the assumption they're in vacuum, and no one's surviving that. Also, starships tend to have larger generators that die in a fiery explosion, wheras ground vehicles can just disintegrate or crash. So I'm guessing the intent was to denote the whole 'destroyed in massive fireball in a vacuum' vs. 'bad crash, but you might be found as a survivor in the wreckage' paradigms of the two types of conveyances.
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I agree, and I really treat these as soft guidelines. I don't think I took 12D damage in the collision that destroyed my big wheel as a child... | Zarm R'keeg wrote: |
I.E. A car crash, you can maybe walk away from- your plane breaking up, you won't survive. |
You might. A parachute helps, but there are stories of a Russian woman surviving the midair breakup of her plane (don't fly on a Russian-built plane) and the 20,000 foot drop to the deep snow beneath.
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So would then those in vac suits, or sealed power armor get the 12d damage, to potentially survive? Or woudl that amt of explosive force/shrapnel compromise the suits enough it does not matter? |
I think that the 12 D would account for the damage from shrapnel, but if my characters are flying around in armored space suits, I don't see why it's not possible for them to survive. I mean, I think it's highly unlikely, but I don't see why it should be impossible.
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vanir
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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My understanding is that being collision damage, really designed with things like crashing an airspeeder in mind.
I'd have to hunt it out, but pretty sure RAW describes (in survival skill descript maybe), a PC group aboard a starship that gets destroyed gets a survival roll "to get to the escape pods before the hull breaks up" or is killed, it's the survival roll and if you make it you get on escape pods with GM discretion on any environmental damage suffered in the act.
The collision damage is for confined crew spaces during a vehicle collision with a hard object, or you may rule for things like an asteroid hitting the hull, whether occupants take some secondary damage being tossed around.
But ship destroyed results in space combat, I go with survival rolls to use escape/ejection systems and survive the destruction of the vessel.
Naturally it is up to the Players to make sure these systems are installed and maintained on their craft. |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: |
I'd have to hunt it out, but pretty sure RAW describes (in survival skill descript maybe), a PC group aboard a starship that gets destroyed gets a survival roll "to get to the escape pods before the hull breaks up" or is killed, it's the survival roll and if you make it you get on escape pods with GM discretion on any environmental damage suffered in the act. |
Yes, it does.
I tend to look at it this way. I give a Survival Roll either way to give a last chance to hit the eject button, get to escape pods, try to don a survival suite, etc. A lot of this depends on how fast the destruction is. While in abstract game terms it's easy to see everything as instand, in more realistic terms larger vessels will die a little more slow, break apart and be wracked with subsidiary explosions, etc... Unless being hit by the Death Satr, I just don't see a Capital Ship being vaporized or reduced to debris in a single round, even when the damage is of a Destroyed level (usually from volleys from other capital ships). So I tend to use this guideline and adjust up/down depending on how far past the "Destroyed" mark the damage goes, and whether I see the type of weapons-fire/item that caused the damage realisticly* causing it to be reduced to shrapnel in a single round:
Starfighters & Speeders - destruction is fairly instant, player or important NPC gets a Survival roll to hit the eject button (if craft is sso equipped) or takes the full 12D instantly and is most likely killed.
Freighters in Starfighter Sclae - will take between 1 and 6 rounds before exploding completely, usually lots of descriptives of hull ruptures, explosions, etc... Depends on what caused the damage. Players and major NPCs may have some time to make a survival roll to escape, get to life pods, grab something important (may start to suffer penalties to survival roll if they want to try to do too much). Those that fail take the 12D.
Capital Ships - I see the final death throws taking from one to several minutes usually, as the ship lists, bleeds atmosphere, is wracked by secondary explosions. I may not require a Survival Roll, as Players and Important NPCs may have sufficient time to make it to escape pods, small craft in launch bays, etc... I may require various other rolls to clear obstacles and debris created byt the death throws of this ship (running to hurry to wherever, jumping to clear the hole in the collapsed coridor, dodge to avoid steam, fires, and falling debris, lifting to move debris blocking ones path or force a jammed door, etc...).
Of course, I like to build the Drama, and usually liek to give Players and major NPCs a chance at surviving certain Death, in the spirit of the last minute escapes made in the movies time and again.
Obviously when talking about a fantasy space-opera setting with lasers, hyperspace, and mystical powers I am usign the term realisticly in a somewhat loose fashion.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | My understanding is that being collision damage, really designed with things like crashing an airspeeder in mind.
I'd have to hunt it out, but pretty sure RAW describes (in survival skill descript maybe), a PC group aboard a starship that gets destroyed gets a survival roll "to get to the escape pods before the hull breaks up" or is killed, it's the survival roll and if you make it you get on escape pods with GM discretion on any environmental damage suffered in the act.
The collision damage is for confined crew spaces during a vehicle collision with a hard object, or you may rule for things like an asteroid hitting the hull, whether occupants take some secondary damage being tossed around.
But ship destroyed results in space combat, I go with survival rolls to use escape/ejection systems and survive the destruction of the vessel.
Naturally it is up to the Players to make sure these systems are installed and maintained on their craft. |
Not under the survival skill, and the aspect of starship damage that gives chances to get to escape pods are when you roll a 5 on your D6 roll when your ship takes severe damage.. That one specifically mentions "Ship destroyed, takes D6 rounds to break up.
5. Structural damage. The ship is so badly damaged
that it begins to disintegrate. The crew has ID rounds
to evacuate
A roll of 6 for severe damage says
6. Destroyed. This ship disintegrates or explodes in
a ball of flame.
Ship destroyed says
Destroyed. The ship is instantly destroyed and
explodes in a ball of flame. Everyone aboard is killed
So where kage, are you getting that the RAW mentions you have a chance with the destroyed part, of getting to pods?
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vanir
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Yes Garkhal but doesn't it also say in there somewhere an optional rule that "GMs may want to allow PCs survival rolls to get to escape pods when the "ship is destroyed" result is rolled rather than automatically killing their characters, to give the players a second chance to survive?
So I'd use the the 5 result of 1d6 rds breakup meaning you can get to escape pods without having to roll, so long as you don't do anything silly like going back to your cabin to pack first.
And the 6 result of the ship immediately breaking up being the one where PCs get a survival roll under the optional rule.
Either way unless you're already in a hard vacuum suit and decide to sit in the crew quarters while the ship breaks up and see if you live through it, I wouldn't bother with vehicle collision damage or crew secondary damage in starship combat. You either get to an escape pod or get dead. |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Yes Garkhal but doesn't it also say in there somewhere an optional rule that "GMs may want to allow PCs survival rolls to get to escape pods when the "ship is destroyed" result is rolled rather than automatically killing their characters, to give the players a second chance to survive?
So I'd use the the 5 result of 1d6 rds breakup meaning you can get to escape pods without having to roll, so long as you don't do anything silly like going back to your cabin to pack first.
And the 6 result of the ship immediately breaking up being the one where PCs get a survival roll under the optional rule.
Either way unless you're already in a hard vacuum suit and decide to sit in the crew quarters while the ship breaks up and see if you live through it, I wouldn't bother with vehicle collision damage or crew secondary damage in starship combat. You either get to an escape pod or get dead. |
I just double checked all three editions - this was indeed mentioned under the survival skill in 1st edition, but not second or second revised. Under 2nd edition (blue Cover) there is mention of when a vehicle is destroyed, either as a result of heavy damage, or as a result of instant destroyed, then the characters take the appropriate damage as mentioned on the passenger damage chart. The 2nd edition book also has a note to GM's that judgement calls should be made when assessing the damage as the characters may not be near the source of the damage, other factors may reduce damage, etc... I do not see any of this in 2nd Revised though (which is unfortunate as it's all useful information - but it may have been moved to one of the sections on Game Mastering or setting up adventures, etc... no time to do an exaustive search).
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | You might. A parachute helps, but there are stories of a Russian woman surviving the midair breakup of her plane (don't fly on a Russian-built plane) and the 20,000 foot drop to the deep snow beneath. |
Shoulda known you'd bring that up- it was niggling in the back of my mind as I wrote.  This was, of course, just a generalization (as I think the rules were) to communicate the concept, not a hard-fast law without exceptions.
| cheshire wrote: | | I think that the 12 D would account for the damage from shrapnel, but if my characters are flying around in armored space suits, I don't see why it's not possible for them to survive. I mean, I think it's highly unlikely, but I don't see why it should be impossible. |
Well, there is still the traditional "powerplant explodes in a tremendous fireball" aspect. The 12D could cover that, too- depending on radius- but I'd think people in the heart of the ship would be far less likely to survive than those on the outskirts of the hull or outside...
| vanir wrote: | But ship destroyed results in space combat, I go with survival rolls to use escape/ejection systems and survive the destruction of the vessel.
Naturally it is up to the Players to make sure these systems are installed and maintained on their craft. |
Exactly. I believe the Introductory Adventure Set even builds this mechanic into the Vindicator in the last mission... which is the only reason half of my PCs survived their first adventure...
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | You might. A parachute helps, but there are stories of a Russian woman surviving the midair breakup of her plane (don't fly on a Russian-built plane) and the 20,000 foot drop to the deep snow beneath. |
There are a number of cases, especially on the Eastern Front, of fliers whose cutes didn't open surviving very high falls because they hit snow and or snow covered trees on the slope of a hill which cushioned their fall. This mentions some other survival scenarios.
The second edition rules seem clear that death is the result in garhkal's scenario. Despite that, is that the most interesting result for play? Maybe, maybe not. Allowing the heroes (or villains) some time to eject or get to an escape pod seems in keeping with the genre. A survival roll is an interesting skill to use and certainly makes the inclusion of survival on the Brash Pilot template even more essential. Did the first edition rules assign a difficulty to eject or get to an escape pod?
Set a very easy difficulty to eject, moderate difficulty to reach & launch an escape pod as a starting difficulty if there are 5+ rounds before the ship blows up. Then increase the difficulty by +5 per round less than 5 rounds. So characters who want to drag a friend to safety or go to their quarters to pick up a treasured item can try to do so, but it raises the difficulty.
Thoughts? Too easy? Too difficulty?
Seems like there should still be a chance for damage to the characters even if they get a chance to escape. |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Did the first edition rules assign a difficulty to eject or get to an escape pod? |
Not under the skill itself. It is just mentioned as one of the uses of Survival in a sort of Off-Handish way.
| Star Wars, the Role Playing Game 1st Edition, page 34 wrote: | | Second, when a character is threatened by nature, you can make a skill roll to see if he imediately makes the right move - reaches for a vacuum suite when alarms sound, runs upwind when there's a forst fire, whatever. Choose a difficulty number, based on how much experience the character has in the environment: |
But, then under Starship combat it says the following:
| Star Wars, the Role Playing Game 1st Edition, page 63 wrote: | | Destroyed ships are obliterated. They disapear in a ball of flame. Generous Game Masters may let players make survival rolls to see if they make it to the escape pods or activate the ejection system in time (difficulty 15). |
It is unfortunate this was left out of later editions, as it certainly is more in keeping with the genre and style of the game overall.
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