PC Skill

[Crimson_red]

I have been curious about other GM's (and players too) opinions and experience with PC skill levels. I understand because of the, lets say, organic nature of character advancement, it may be difficult to discuss the subject, but I'm curious just the same.

Starting Characters:

At this point, things are pretty simple, PCs have a cap on the dice they can distribute, skills are limited to 2 dice above their attributes. Specializations may or may not be limited to a single die above that. Do GMs have any issues with running characters skills at this point? Strengths/Weaknesses? As seen in another thread, some GMs, including myself, allow specializations above 1D, and may have removed other similar restrictions. Has this had any notable effects on your game? if so, elaborate. These questions can go towards starting equipment as well, or other factors that impact the PCs game performance.

Advanced Characters:

Here our characters a coming into their own, or even stretching beyond. Is there a point when PC dice pools become difficult to deal with, or even cause a game to fall apart? Have you found a sweet spot where character skill is easiest to deal with. In d20, there is often talk of a level where the game plays the smoothest, and talk of levels where the game seems to fall apart. Have you found anything similar in D6?

Player opinions and experience matter too, is there a point where you feel you struggle too much? A sweet spot were your characters are the golden to play? Or, A high point, where you feel you've stretched your character beyond the point they were enjoyable to play?

If you need a context of why I ask these questions, they are partly inspired by discussion about game balance, epic level game play, and DnDnext, but mostly in some reactions expressed when I revealed the two characters in my current game. I was curious if their reactions were just spirit of the rules or Rules as Written objections/observations or did they lagitimately feel that those characters, deviating from the norm, were in serious risk of disrupting the game. I'm trying to cover it from a broader or more general, and more informed, perspective than just my two oddball characters.

[Bren]

I think the range of interesting play depends on both the PCs and the opponents. Starting PCs work fine for the kind of opponents you find in the original WEG Adventures - e.g. normal stormtroopers. That range works very well - except for Jedi characters. They tend to be either weak and fragile or somewhat narrow in skills at the beginning level compared to normal characters. Trying to compensate for that is where a lot of Jedi characters will try to use the Concentration skill - a lot.

We've played for a long time - heavily (average 8-10 hours per week) for about 8 years and then sporadically for another 9-10 years. We tend towards a fairly low CP / hour of play ratio (< 1 CP per hour) so most characters still have important skills that are in the < 6D range, though the most experienced characters have 1 or 2 skills up to 8D or so. Experienced characters tend to have more 4D - 6D skills rather than having a couple of very high skills. In this range you have to beef up the opponents - either more normal stormtroopers so that the PCs are seriously outnumbered or tougher opponents e.g. Shadowtroopers, Imperial Guards, etc.

The experienced Jedi characters have C/S/A in the 5D - 7D range. This works well, though the Jedi are now quite powerful being able to hold their own with non-force using characters who have 1D-2D better skills. Less experienced Jedi characters in the 3D - 5D range are interesting. This is a level where they use the Force to do interesting but not overpowering things and there is still some risk of failure for many Force powers.

We havn't had any PCs get to 10D or more in skills. That feels like it will be a bit overpowering compared to anything like a normal person and the Jedi characters would especially seem extremely powerful. At that point you will need adversaries in large numbers or on the order of Darth Vader to challenge the PCs.

Is that what you were looking for Crimson_red?

[garhkal]

I love starting out characters, as it has the most 'balanced feel between everyone' and puts them all in the 'same boat'. Even though depending on template/how they assign their 18d/7d, they could still be miles appart.

On advancing skills, i find once pcs get into the 12d+ area, unless they are all there (especially combative ones) you have to tailor an encounter so much that any of the enemy there that are 'a worthy challenge' to that 12d combat god, would be overwhelming for the non gods...
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[Crimson_red]

Yeah, those are both great replies, and the kind of input I was looking for.

My own experience has shown much the same, particularly 12D+ skills; in one of our longest lasting games, the most used skills were reaching that range (mostly due to specializations and solid CP rewards). The Game final came to an end when we basically called the GM on a way over the top scenario, he threw his arms in the air and called it quits. He had reach his limit and needed a fresh start.

Bren, that sound like quite a slow progression, but with those games lasting as long as they appeared to, it would be needed. I'd love to play in a game like that!

I too like to spread by skills around. I've noticed the games where the characters focused on a small skill set or min/maxed their advancement tended to have a shorter run. Have others had similar experiences?

Excepting that we have very few posts so far, and accepting that this ruleset allows for a broad amount of variability, it's starting to sound that primary skills of around 4D-7D seems to be something of a sweet spot.

That brings up a related subject, multiple actions. Do you find certain numbers of multiple actions in a round correspond to certain skill levels. Obviously, this would differ in relation to roll Difficulties.... I bring it up because I think understanding that aspect of the game can make it easier to determine the number of opponents and similar considerations when the PCs reach a relative skill level...

In some ways, I guess my interest is in game balance; what works and what is disruptive. On the other hand, to much focus on balance can itself be disruptive if taken too far (one of my opinions, especially related to DnD4e, but that isn't really here nor there).

[Bren]

12D just seemed over the top to our group.

We didn't play with the intent of having characters grow into someone who could defeat (or even confront) Darth Vader in person. So we aimed at a somewhat lower power level. Also, selfishly (or maturely if you want to be generous) we realized that cranking up our PC's power to the level of "best in the galaxy" would lead to retirement rather than continued play. Personally I (still) like my character so I prefer to keep his skills in a range that is playable for our group.

Note that what is playable is mostly subjective and will vary from group to group.

[Crimson_red]

[Bren]

Well a 2D advantage tends to be pretty significant in D6 so you can look at the multiple action from that perspective. If Luke has a 12D skill than he can take 5 actions, end up with effectively an 8D skill, and he should most likely defeat anyone with a 6D or less skill. So that tells us that sending four 6D opponents at Luke will alllow him to defend himself against all four opponents as well as attack (and probably hit) all four opponents in a single round. Given he swings a lightsaber - these four opponents are not a challenge for Luke. Take away Luke's lightsaber, give him a blaster, and put the opponents in stormtrooper armor and now this is a bit of a challenge, but Luke should still win.

That's usually how I do my assessments of challenge levels.

[garhkal]

[Fallon Kell]

I run recurring NPCs the same as PCs, with the standard 18+7 for attributes and skills to start. Some of them are much more powerful, having "adventured" since long before the start of our game. Before my player starts reaching higher D levels, where he might begin to be able to take on Vader in a fair fight, I'll start giving him challenges and responsibilities requiring other skills. When you're leading troops, tactics and command become more valuable than blaster and dodge.

I'll be truly impressed if my player manages to bring down Vader using 14D Streetwise...
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[Naaman]

I have played two Jedi characters to "epic" levels. The first had a lightsaber skill of 11D+2 with force skills each hovering at around 8D. This character's brawling skill was also 13D+2. The character had many other slills in the 4-6D range. This was my first character, who was, rather like a newbie character should be, based on a jedi/ninja concept.

My second Jedi character was more a traditional Jedi. This time, lightsaber topped out at 9D+2 as did all the force skills. Both these characters were a blast to play all the way through.

My most recent Jedi character is much more specialized, with a dispropprtionately high lightsaber skill and athletic skills, as well as havivg very lop-sided force skill progression (9D control, 6D sense, 4D+2 alter). Other characters in the group are more well rounded with their highest skills sitting at about 6-7D. I must say that this is the funnest character I have ever played, and it has been since the beginning.

[Fallon Kell]

[Naaman]

You like that huh? Oh, so many years ago... fun times. 8)

[Naaman]

[garhkal]

True.. Overwhelm the pcs in numbers of baddies is always a good way.. especially if each is doing something different (say one melee, one brawl, one grenade tossing, one shooting)..
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[Bren]