Wanted: Jedi PC. Experienced Gamers Only.

[CRMcNeill]

So, anyone who has been reading my recent posts knows that I think WEG did a real hack job on turning Jedi into PCs. They handicapped them, dumbed them down, and basically turned the superhuman guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy into the party cleric, who casts spells from behind the protection of the bounty hunter and the smuggler.

In working on my own version of the Force that is, IMO, closer to what we see in the films, I've had to consider a lot of changes. The one thing I have decided for certain is that Force users shouldn't be played by inexperienced gamers. Since Jedi are so much more powerful and complex than the average PC, IMO, they should only be played by players who have demonstrated the maturity required to play such a complex character.

This doesn't have to take away from the Star Wars feel of the game. Even before the EMpire, Jedi were exceedingly rare, so much so that a person could potentially live their entire lives without ever even being on the same planet as a Jedi.

I'm typing this up on an iPhone, and the idea isn't fully formed yet, but I would appreciate the Forum's input.[/list]
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Raven Redstar]

I've played numerous Jedi over my career, both light & dark side. I would be curious to see what you come up with. I had my own project set up to create a simpler system for actually using the force, but it never made it out of the initial stages.

My initial reasoning for creating it, was the fact that I had lazy players at the time who were unable to do simple addition/subtraction while keeping track of their actions during the round. I had one player throw his arms up and walk out of the room when he wasn't able to use affect mind on a mid-level NPC because of relationship modifiers added in with the perception of his target.

So, I can say with complete honesty that I would really like to see what you come up with.
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RR
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[ZzaphodD]

Force Skills = Abilities
Force Powers = Skills
Activate Power (ie skills) = One roll of the dice.

Im happy..
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[Matthias777]

Well, it's a game, and I would hate to tell a friend that I've just convinced to try out the SWRPG, "Well, you're not experienced at roleplaying yet, so no Force-sensitive characters." I would feel better saying something like, "Well, Jedi are pretty rare, even before the Great Purge, and afterwards, they're incredibly scarce. They're also somewhat difficult to roleplay properly; with great power comes great responsibility. Getting your feet wet, you might want to try something simpler. But if you're serious enough about it to come up with a well-thought out background, objectives, and personality makeup, I'd be happy to let you play a Force-sensitive. Just remember that Luke started out as a simple farmboy, not a Jedi Knight. You'll have to earn the power...but that's what makes it fun!"

I am also of the notion that powers should be handled as skills in some way. And you shouldn't be deducting from your attribute dice in order to put dice into Force skills; being Force-sensitive doesn't atrophy your DNA or somehow make you otherwise inferior to another being of the same species. Take the dice for starting Force skills from (durr) starting skill dice.

The powers need to be reworked completely, but I have no idea as to where to start. That portion is admittedly daunting. Maybe a Force power tree, or specializations, or both...or...um...something?
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Arek | Kage

[S-Foil]

I may be the odd man out but I don't really have a problem with the way Force powers are handled in the rules as written. At the same time I think they were mainly informed by abilities seen in the original trilogy so there's things in the EU and Prequels that were never covered by the original rules (or official supplements like Dark Empire or Tales of the Jedi).

Force skills requiring attribute dice doesn't bother me much because they're not taking attribute dice from the "typical" NPC's 12D but from a heroic character's 18D. If a character spends time learning to use their Control skill at 2D they weren't spending that time getting their Mechanical attribute from the "average" 2D to 3D. For the most part I think at character creation Jedi end up pretty balanced compared to other heroic characters.

Force skills having powers I also haven't found to be a problem except at much higher power levels. For most of the game Jedi are beefy but not necessarily overpowered. For a good portion of the game Jedi are held back by their easy accumulation of MAPs which tends to limit their craziness. It's not a system that can't be exploited and gamed but I guess I haven't often had players that tried to do that.

I think a better description (from my point of view) would be that Jedi can be tough things for GMs to manage. A group of smugglers might find a squad of Stormtroopers a bit of a challenge even at higher levels. Add a Jedi in the mix with a high Control and Sense score and LSC and that squad is less of a challenge.

To provide a challenge for the Jedi you need to pull them away from their support staff and give them challenges appropriate to their capabilities. The Stormtroopers might be dispatched to deal with the smugglers but the Jedi hunting expert mercenary with slugthrowers, stun weapons, and grenades would target the Jedi.

[MacRauri]

[CRMcNeill]

My iPhone wont let me watch it. Oh well, I will save it for later.

I don't have a problem with the Force system either, until they get broken down into the details. I often find the powers overly restrictive, with too narrow a focus and too little attention paid to proper duplication of the in-universe action.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Fallon Kell]

I haven't found jedi underpowered. My brother's Young Jedi was a sturdy match for my bounty hunter back in Fallon Kell's heyday...
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Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier

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[Raven Redstar]

[CRMcNeill]

[MacRauri]

[CRMcNeill]

One thing I am definitely doing is altering the rules to allow Jedi to use the Force for direct attacks under certain condition. It's not a popular opinion, but film evidence from the original trilogy indicates it is allowed.

In fact, if you think about it, modifying Jedi t make them capable of actual offense with the Force (up to a point) clears up a big discrepancy between the OT and the prequels: the differences in the martial nature of Jedi in the two trilogies. The popular opinion of the Jedi from an ethical standpoint is primarily formed by WEG's rules, but what if George's vision all along was of Jedi being more martial than how they are presented in the RAW?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Naaman]

I play Jedi charactets almost exclusively. I think the main problem is that Jedi take so long to get started, since force skills are nearly useless below 3D or 4D. By this point, the jedi is just catching up to the other pcs who are sitting comfortably at 6D+ in their primary skills.

I think the overall system is okay, but that there needs to be a streamlining of force power accumulation. Jedi should learn fewer powers, I think, but they should get their starting force skill dice from their skill dice, not attribute dice.

For me, its important that any character I create be conceptually complete from the first session. I dont like having to trudge through seven or eight sessions to finally "realize" my original idea that started months ago.

Im not talking about having high skill codes right off the bat. Im saying that the starting repritoire should paint a clear picture of the concept.

[vanir]

My group started playing in something like 1989, carried through to 2E then had a break 'til recently.

Back at the start it was very rudimentary. If you've the full collection of books, grab the 1E Core Rulebook and the 1E Sourcebook and that's it.

Build a Jedi game on those two. Then slowly add one or two 1E supplements/sourcebooks over several months.

We actually found what we nutted out using logical process and player interaction in our game wound up being what we found included in progressive expansions. What I mean is we basically had to invent most of the Force powers because most didn't exist when we started playing. Incredibly what we found, no lie was that the bulk of what we invented coincided with later game release material, at least conceptually or abstractly if not concisely.

The Jedi/Force system is logical, everything is based on control/sense/alter and willpower/per and the attribute/d6 system, as a premise... it's all just in how you apply it. They work well enough if you can throw it around a bit without abandoning the logical premise.

Like crmc says, more about finer points in descriptions yes I get that. It's where we departed too.
Direct attacks okay but here's the trick, the RPG is trying to apply a working mechanic. Aiming the Force directly at an organism in a combative aspect is a DSP.

Now it's one thing to say "I don't think that's what I see in the movies" but it's another thing to replace one mechanic that works so you have a game, with another one that works so you have a game too.

If you're just going to make it an artistic expression, then it isn't an RPG anymore. It's like weird social art or something, I dunno, become a movie producer and director and use people to express your artistic vision.

Otherwise you have to have a solid mechanic, for right or wrong, that players can sit down and say, okay, here is the math, now let me make the decisions.

This same argument about Force attacks and the DSP comes up in our game too. Handled it two ways:
1. apply RAW except award DSP as FP and don't tell the Player. When DSP d6 roll for GM control happens, then tell them, oh by the way those 4 FP were actually DSP sorry.
It's a game, one you can lose as a player.
2. the intention of the Force attack. A defensive swatting is not like an aggressive heart crush. One doesn't warrant DSP, other does.
In this event everything comes down to eliciting precise descriptions from the Player of exactly how his Jedi is using Control, what he is thinking of when he exerts that skill, then same for Sense and every part of the specific power he is trying to use. Then make a GM ruling on DSP based on Player description.
Bonus about option 2 here is that Force powers don't necessarily go like a menu selection, the GM may rule that a different power than the Player selection actually suits their description better.

So use option 1 for Player who uses the RAW like a menu.
Option 2 for Players that define their intentions existentially.