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Bren
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 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: Does a FP double your skill before or after subtracting MAPs |
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When you use a Force Point do you subtract MAPs before or after doubling any skills?
Note that this will be a lengthy post.
Some interpret the rules as saying double the skill then continue with play normally, i.e. subtract MAPs as normally.
Others say that the rules specify subtracting MAPs first, then doubling.
I ran a find for “Force Point” on a scan of the Second Edition, Revised and Expanded rules.
What the 2R&E rules actually say is the following.
| page 84 wrote: | | A player may spend one Force Point in a round; all skills, attributes and special ability die codes are doubled for the rest of that round. |
Notice this says, all skills…are doubled for the rest of the round. It does not say, after accounting for any MAPs, all skills are doubled for the rest of that round.
| page 84 wrote: | | Example: Thannik is firing his blaster pistol (4D damage) with his blaster: blaster pistol skill of 6D. Greg declares that Thannik is spending a Force Point. Thannik rolls 12D to hit with his blasterblaster pistol skill; however, if Thannik hits, he only rolls the normal 4D damage for the blaster pistol. |
This example doesn’t reference any multiple action penalties so it provides no additional support to either side.
So why do some people think MAPs are subtracted first?
It comes from this example.
| page 143 wrote: | Example: Luke is flying down the trench of the Death Star. With Ben's urging, he clears his mind of negative thoughts, and feels the Force flowing through him. Using the Force, he concentrates on the task of firing a proton torpedo into the unshielded exhaust port. Since he has cleared his mind, the control difficulty is Easy. Luke's player declares that Luke is also spending a Force Point to accomplish the task this round. Luke's starship gunnery skill is 6D. He loses -ID for doing one other thing in the round (using the Force counts as an action), reducing his starship gunnery skill to 5D. Because he rolls successfully for his control, he receives the bonus of +4D, making his effective skill for that round 9D. Because he is spending a Force Point, his skill level is doubled to 18D!
If Luke attempted any other action in that round, including firing another proton torpedo or blaster, or dodging enemy shots, he would
receive no bonus. |
Here MAPs are subtracted, but the full +4D Concentration bonus is added before doubling.
There are a couple of things to notice about this example.
1) It is an example for Concentration, not for the use of a Force Point.
2) It does not clarify, but may be inferred to imply, that all bonuses or penalties to a skill roll should be added before doubling for a Force Point, more on this later.
Here is what the rule on concentration (also from page 143) says:
| page 143 wrote: | The individual Jedi concentrates on one specific task at hand. If the skill roll is successful, the Jedi may add +4D to any one action in that round. The Jedi may do nothing other than using the concentration power and using that one skill for one action. The Jedi receives no bonus if anything else is done in that round, including duplicate uses of the same skill or dodges or parries.
This power may be used in conjunction with Force Points or Character Points. This power is only in effect for one round and may not be kept "up." |
There are three things to notice here.
1) The Concentration power description says that +4D is added “to any one action,” it does not say that the bonus is added to the skill, but to the action and further it does not specify that using a Force Point doubles the Concentration bonus (the net result of adding then doubling). The example and the description do not actually match.
2) Only one skill can be used in a round when the concentration power is used or the bonus is lost. Luke is flying down a narrow trench at a rate of speed sufficient so as not to be overtaken by Vader and the TIEs. Ordinarily that would require a movement action or at least a roll for terrain difficulty. Using Concentration he can only take one action (fire the proton torpedo). So how does he fly the ship that round and not hit the wall? I merely point this out to indicate that the Concentration example already seems potentially flawed, prior to any question of how Force Points are supposed to work.
3) The Concentration example seems to imply that, in addition to MAPs, other skill bonuses or modifiers should be accounted for prior to doubling. So would other modifiers like darkness, smoke, cover, called shots, or scale bonus/penalties also be added before doubling? That strikes me as odd, unintuitive, and slower to calculate than just doubling the skill, then accounting for modifiers. It also has the effect of greatly increasing the utility of Concentration – making it worth a net bonus of +7D when using a FP. That means a Jedi with a FP can take any 2D skill (the minimum possible skill for most PCs) and by using Concentration and a FP boost that skill to 11D (2D+4D)x2 -1D. To that I just have to say, ummm…no! Your young Jedi doesn't get to be best in the galaxy with that skill that you didn't even bother to improve. So to my mind, the Concentration example is already wrong. The correct interpretation should be for Luke in the trench: FP use doubles his 6D skill = 12D +4D for Concentration -1D for MAPs = 15D. Still very high, but somewhat lower than the 18D that the example provides.
Is there anything else to consider?
The rule text clearly states that the skill is doubled. Not that MAPs are accounted for then the net result is doubled. I find an example about Concentration located in an entirely different section of the rule book an odd place to “clarify” how use of a Force Point is intended to work. Especially when the example of Force Point use in the section on Force Point use does not include the subtract MAPs before doubling “rule.” In addition, using the example for cont
On the other hand, without the Concentration power, doubling after including MAPs will decrease the ability to use a FP to take many different kinds of actions in a single round. If we take the example of Luke in the trench without Concentration and assume he has to both move and shoot. Then he has (6D-1D)x2 = 10D skill instead 6Dx2-1D = 11D.
If we instead look at an example of a character with Climbing/Jumping 4D, Dodge 6D, Blaster 5D who uses a FP to jump across a chasm, dodge enemy fire, and shoot back at the enemy twice (4 actions).
Double then MAPs gives adjusted skills of 4Dx2-3D=5D jump, 6Dx2D-3D=9D dodge, 5Dx2-3D=7D each shot
MAPs then doubling gives adjusted skills of (4D-3D)x2=2D jump, (6D-3D)x2=6D dodge, (5D-3D)x2=4D each shot
This will significantly limit the number of multiple actions a character can successfully take using a FP. We can each decide which scenario we find preferable or more true to the tone we want in our games.
On the other side, the Hercules & Xena RPG and the D6 Space rules (and presumably the other open D6 rules) limit a FP to one affecting only one skill. That seems more like the include MAPs then double rule and provides support for that interpretation.
I think the rules are just ambigous enough to support either interpretation. However, I pPersonally am going to stick with the double then account for MAPs and other modifiers rule that I have used since we started playing in Second Edition. I am still considering (and discussing with my co-GM) the idea of moving to one FP affecting only one skill or action per round. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Personally I support removing MAPs and other penalties (like wound penalties) first. It seems to me that someone should use a force point to be exceptional in one or two tasks and use character points to spam multiple actions.
In a recent example I had a character with 3D dexterity get poisoned three times by a toxin that added a 1D penalty to dexterity resulting in him becoming paralysed.
Had I spent a force point and penalties were removed afterwards he would have suddenly shrugged off the effects of the toxin, becoming able to move without penalty and (due to a high brawling skill) club five or six people into submission before the poison re-immobilized him. This doesn't seem like what a force point is supposed to be able to achieve.
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Yinan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have to disaggree Esoomian, that sounds exactly like what a Force point should achieve.
Using a Force Point means you're "invoking" the Force, having it help you in a Task. So if you would normally get Paralyzed because of Poison, using the force gives you a last chance to still be able to stand up and do something exceptional (for example thanks to a now very high brawling skill).
A Force Point is something pretty rare to have and should not be wasted lightely, because if you use it in a situation were it was not necessary, you can do this exceptional thing, but lose your Force Point permanently.
So I support the "First double, then adjust with modifications" interpretation. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'll have to go hunting for it, but I could have sworn that I'd read either in a rule clarification in the SWAJ or someplace that the MAPs and wound penalties were supposed to come out after the doubling. I'll look into it and check back in on my findings or lack thereof.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | Personally I support removing MAPs and other penalties (like wound penalties) first. It seems to me that someone should use a force point to be exceptional in one or two tasks and use character points to spam multiple actions.
In a recent example I had a character with 3D dexterity get poisoned three times by a toxin that added a 1D penalty to dexterity resulting in him becoming paralysed.
Had I spent a force point and penalties were removed afterwards he would have suddenly shrugged off the effects of the toxin, becoming able to move without penalty and (due to a high brawling skill) club five or six people into submission before the poison re-immobilized him. This doesn't seem like what a force point is supposed to be able to achieve. |
It's exactly because of scenarios like this Esoomian, that I double first and then modify with MAPs, Wounds, etc...
For a long time I played with interpretation that you subtract then double, but I was placed in a situation as a player where my character wasted a force point to get a skill of 2D because of wounds. So my character's force augmented, "last stand" resulted in little more than spittle. Not very epic.
Now, doing it the other way around does open up for some degree of abuse, but what I find is that in most cases force points are being spent for some singular action anyway, not in an attempt to pull off matrix type speed and break the game.
Thanks for looking into it Chesh, I'm anxious to hear what you find out!
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cheshire
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
Thanks for looking into it Chesh, I'm anxious to hear what you find out! |
My fear is that it was on WEDGE.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I'll have to go hunting for it, but I could have sworn that I'd read either in a rule clarification in the SWAJ or someplace that the MAPs and wound penalties were supposed to come out after the doubling. I'll look into it and check back in on my findings or lack thereof. |
Same here, i even looked in the GM handbook, and saw nothing.
| Quote: | | For a long time I played with interpretation that you subtract then double, but I was placed in a situation as a player where my character wasted a force point to get a skill of 2D because of wounds. So my character's force augmented, "last stand" resulted in little more than spittle. Not very epic. |
Good point.. if you take off wounds and maps before doubling you could easily get a FP roll of 2d...
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Personally I am just as concerned that the example under Concentration will make almost any Jedi one of the galaxy's best anything for any single action skill - even if the Jedi only had 2D in the skill to start with.
Skill: 2D
Concentration: 4D
(2D+4D)x2=12D when using a Forcepoint. Now add the MAP for concentration and one action and we get:
12D-1D=11D
The beginning Jedi just went from blaster 2D to blaster 11D. Really? I mean REALLY?!? Does anyone else think that this is a bad idea? |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Concentration is broken. But that is another topic in general. With concentration, I have had my completely inexperienced Jedi roll skills that other group members put dice & character points into raising and I was rolling better than they were. I'm considering changing concentration to a flat bonus: +5 or +10. (Not to be doubled by force points.)
| Quote: | | The beginning Jedi just went from blaster 2D to blaster 11D. Really? I mean REALLY?!? Does anyone else think that this is a bad idea? |
I DO!
Even as we play now, Concentration bonus gets added in after force doubling, so in your example:
2Dx2 = 4D+4D=8D -1D MAP= 7D.
So, I'm curious, did this get started because garhkal lets his bad guys use 2 force points in a round to quad their skills? Is that even legal? 
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | Concentration is broken. |
I would argue that the only thing that is broken is the example.
Here is why. First note this from the description of Concentration.
| Concentration wrote: | | Control Difficulty: Easy if the Jedi is relaxed and at peace; Difficult if the Jedi is filled with aggression, fear or other negative emotions; Very Difficult if the Jedi is acting on those negative emotions. |
- If you ignore doubling via FP then concentration gives a net +3D (+4D bonus -1D for two actions).
- It requires two actions so the Jedi will act after his opponent's first action. In the round, this is like the slow action we see where Luke calls his lightsaber in the Wampa's cave on Hoth.
- Most uses in game will have a difficulty of Moderate or higher, since the situation will be such that a Jedi is not relaxed and at peace. Typically when we play, our Jedi often take a preparation round to calm themselves – they recite the relevant portions of the Jedi oath and try to make a willpower roll to become and remain calm rather than roll vs a Moderate or Difficult difficulty. But note in this case the Jedi is now taking two rounds to act. Taking a prep round in the rules would normally provide a +1D bonus anyway so now the difference between the Jedi and the non-Jedi is only a net of +2D. Not too broken really.
- Enforcing the difficulty also means that beginning Jedi may need to use a FP or spend CPs to succeed in activating Concentration. Which again provides some balance.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | So, I'm curious, did this get started because garhkal lets his bad guys use 2 force points in a round to quad their skills? Is that even legal? |
Sort of. 
As I understand it, the argument for quadding (which is never mentioned in the rules) comes from the Calling on the Dark Side. See especially the bolded text below.
| page 86 wrote: | | Calling Upon the Dark Side. Characters, Force-sensitive or not, may call upon the dark side, especially when angry, aggressive, desperate or otherwise out of balance. The character automatically receives a Dark Side Point, whether the attempt is successful or not. The character has opened himself up to anger, fear and hate; whether he "benefits" from this anger is irrelevant. It is easy to1 call upon the dark side of the Force — at first. If the character is Force-sensitive, the difficulty is Easy. If the character is not Force-sensitive, the difficulty is Moderate. If the actions are not intended to bring harm or pain to other beings, increase the difficulty by two levels (Difficult for Force-sensitives; Very Difficult for non-Force sensitives). Increase the difficulty by +3 for each additional time the character calls upon the dark side during an adventure. (At the beginning of a new adventure, the difficulty drops back down to Easy for Force-sensitive characters and Moderate for non-sensitives.) The character rolls either his control Force skill or Perception attribute when calling upon the dark side. A character who successfully calls upon the dark side receives a Force Point which must be spent immediately — this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round. This option is not open to characters who refuse to believe in the existence of the Force, including many Imperial troops and officers. |
Those in favor of allowing quadding assume that using the FP given by successfully calling on the Dark Side when combined with a normal FP use will provide x2 for the first FP and x2 for the FP from the Dark Side = x4. Those, like me, that do not favor quadding, assume that if a FP was already declared before calling on the Dark Side, then the extra FP from the Dark Side is used to essentially no effect. Thus Calling on the Dark Side is used either to get an extra FP for "free" or for fluff effect for a very angry character. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, but getting a skill you've invested no time or energy in to 5D or 6D with a relatively easy roll is a little broken.
Yes, it is harder to use in combat or tense situations, but what about all of the other times it can be used? Perception & Knowledge skills? What about climbing/jumping?
If the character isn't being directly shot at, or chased concentration gives Jedi a very quick bonus which is abused quite often. I would know, my Jedi practically doesn't do anything without rolling concentration first while out of combat. It is what we have long referred to as "poor man's bonus" but it is anything but poor. +3D is a decisive advantage.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
So, I'm curious, did this get started because garhkal lets his bad guys use 2 force points in a round to quad their skills? Is that even legal? |
Well, look at the rule book.. when you call on the dark side and are successful, it gives you a force point which must be spent immediately, even if you already spent one for the round... so 2x2 is x4...
| Quote: | | # Enforcing the difficulty also means that beginning Jedi may need to use a FP or spend CPs to succeed in activating Concentration. Which again provides some balance. |
Very true.. i have seen many jedi fledgling pc's take concentration for that 4d bonus, but who had to burn at times 2 character points to activate it.
| Quote: | | If the character isn't being directly shot at, or chased concentration gives Jedi a very quick bonus which is abused quite often. I would know, my Jedi practically doesn't do anything without rolling concentration first while out of combat. It is what we have long referred to as "poor man's bonus" but it is anything but poor. +3D is a decisive advantage. |
That's when you start having things like other jedi (ie their master) start berating them for their over-reliance on the force, or jedi hunters start tracking them cause of the force ripples they are obviously leaving in their wake.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: |
So, I'm curious, did this get started because garhkal lets his bad guys use 2 force points in a round to quad their skills? Is that even legal? |
Well, look at the rule book.. when you call on the dark side and are successful, it gives you a force point which must be spent immediately, even if you already spent one for the round... so 2x2 is x4... |
But the problem is the rules never say you can double a second time. That's something you are inferring. "Must be spent immediately," just means that you can't keep the FP you get from the Dark Side to use later. I then infer that you can't double a second time. So if you already used a FP, then call on the Dark Side the additional point is wasted.
Fact is the rule doesn't clarify whether doubling is allowed. Though it seems to me that the balance of the evidence supports doubling not being allowed.
| page 84 wrote: | | A player may spend one Force Point in a round; all skills, attributes and special ability die codes are doubled for the rest of that round. |
I go with the assumption that since it is not specifically allowed and the rules clearly state that a character can spend one FP in a round to double his skill that it is not allowed. Therefore I infer that any additional FP would be wasted. garhkal and others make the assumption that since it is not forbidden, it is allowed. YMMV.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | If the character isn't being directly shot at, or chased concentration gives Jedi a very quick bonus which is abused quite often. I would know, my Jedi practically doesn't do anything without rolling concentration first while out of combat. It is what we have long referred to as "poor man's bonus" but it is anything but poor. +3D is a decisive advantage. |
But normal characters can take extra time to prepare an action and get a +1D bonus. So the difference is really only +2D between the Jedi and the non-Jedi. It is a distinct advantage, but it is somewhat limited by (a) the need to make the control roll which is more difficult in stressful situations, (b) the limitation that only one action other than Concentration can be used and if one needs more limits one could conclude that (c) any up powers would need to be dropped since Concentration takes the Jedi's full attention. I can live with the power as is. Of course that may be influenced by the fact that the Jedi we play don't always use concentration. Mostly they use it for Force related powers and mostly they use it when it seems to matter a bit more than usual to the character that they succeed.
| garhkal wrote: | | That's when you start having things like other jedi (ie their master) start berating them for their over-reliance on the force, or jedi hunters start tracking them cause of the force ripples they are obviously leaving in their wake. |
That's an additional point. I like the caution for over dependence or failure to develop the underlying skills. As far as Force ripples - I am less convinced. Concentration is a contol only power and seems like it would be quiet compared to most powers. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bren"]
| page 84 wrote: | | A player may spend one Force Point in a round; all skills, attributes and special ability die codes are doubled for the rest of that round. |
That was the first thing that popped into my head, but then I read on and found this:
| Quote: |
A character who successfully calls upon the dark side receives a Force Point which must be spent immediately -- this is in addition to any other Force Points which have been spent that round |
Indeed the x4 is an extrapolation, but it does seem pretty clear in its statement that the dark side may offer an additional boost to the Force Point you spent this round.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, not sure if I'll ever end up using that rule... My dark siders are hard enough as is.
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