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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: Optional Ion Damage Rules |
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Okay, in the RAW, Ion Damage is always tempoerary, and wears off in a few rounds. But, there seems to be evidence to support the idea that Ion guns can permanently fry systems.
In light of the "Optional Brawling Damage Rules",here is a variant rule for Ion Weapons.
Ion damage is rolled, and soaked as normal, with each "Controlls Ionized Resules" resducing Manvuerabilty by 1D and so on, except:
1) A vehicle, or droid can safely soak a maximum number of Controls Ionized results equal to the sum of it's Maneuverability/DEX and Hull/Body STR/STR dice. For instance, an X-Wing (Man 3D, Hull 4D) could safely soak up to 7 ionization results.
2) Each 5 points of diference over 16 in a damage roll is worth an addtional "Controls Ionized" result.
3) "Controls Ionized" results greater than the safe soak value inflicts permanet damage to the vehicle/droid. This is just like being hit by a normal (non-ion) weapon, except that itwon't cause the ship to blow up. If the ship is "destroyed" it is just dead in space.
For example, if an X-Wing were to be suffering from 8 Controls Ionized results at one time, it would suffer light damage, AND still have to wait for 5 rounds before it's "Control Ionized" Results would drop down to -2D, and it could move again. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Plus side: Seems interesting and reasonable that massive ion damage would fry systems. Also matches some EU sources.
Minus side: Extra book keeping.
Conclusion: OK idea. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Bren"]
Minus side: Extra book keeping.[quote]
Not at all. By RAW, you'd have to track all those "Control ionized" results anyway (by RAW, a ship that takes more CI results that it's maneuverability is dead in space until the excess wears off and the ship dows down to "4 Controls Ionized Resutls" and so on.
So All this rule does is add a permanet damage cut off, which actually reduces bookeeping, since you won't need to track when a X-Wing with 30 CI results will wear off. You know it's systems are cooked.
Also, I was thinking that rather than having ships at negative Maneuverability be dead, why not allow then to move, but with the penalties? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="atgxtg"][quote="Bren"]
Minus side: Extra book keeping.Oh, you are just being argumentative.  You have to do the MAN+HULL calculation to figure max ionization # for each vessel and track against maximum ionization to know when to switch to real damage. You also have to calculate what happens with damage exceeded > 16. It is a bit more bookeeping - but despite that it still seems like a good idea.
| Quote: | | So All this rule does is add a permanet damage cut off, which actually reduces bookeeping, since you won't need to track when a X-Wing with 30 CI results will wear off. You know it's systems are cooked. |
Never had 30 CI results. Probably becaues once a ship is dead in space it is a very vulnerable target to non-ion weapons. But there is no permament damage cutoff you are just switching from controls ionized to physical damage.
| Quote: | | Also, I was thinking that rather than having ships at negative Maneuverability be dead, why not allow then to move, but with the penalties? |
I prefer them dead in space. It is more dramatic. Dead in space ships need to be protected by their pals. They may need to be tractored and moved to safety. They can be captured by the good or bad guys. You have the whole countdown to restart. Plus it keeps the dead in space ship in the same spot for a while. In fact, I'd be inlclined to slow the base recovery rate to 1 per 2 rounds but allow a ship repair roll to decrease the time to add to the drama. (Gotta give those astromech droids something to do.) But suit your self. We don't have to agree. |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | [Oh, you are just being argumentative. You have to do the MAN+HULL calculation to figure max ionization # for each vessel and track against maximum ionization to know when to switch to real damage. You also have to calculate what happens with damage exceeded > 16. It is a bit more bookeeping - but despite that it still seems like a good idea. |
Okay, you got me on MAN+HULL. I fugired that was something to do in your head, but it could be bookeeping.
The other stuff might require a bit more work to assing damage, but that isn't bookeeping, per say.
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Never had 30 CI results. Probably becaues once a ship is dead in space it is a very vulnerable target to non-ion weapons. |
I have, once, but that was the result of " target of opportunity". A single Vulture Droid was the only valid enemy target within range of an Y-Wing suqadron, and the gunners didn't want to "waste" their actions.
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I prefer them dead in space. It is more dramatic. Dead in space ships need to be protected by their pals. They may need to be tractored and moved to safety. They can be captured by the good or bad guys. You have the whole countdown to restart. Plus it keeps the dead in space ship in the same spot for a while. In fact, I'd be inlclined to slow the base recovery rate to 1 per 2 rounds but allow a ship repair roll to decrease the time to add to the drama. (Gotta give those astromech droids something to do.) But suit your self. We don't have to agree. |
I like the repair roll idea. TRhe things I don't like about the RAW are:
1) Smaller, nimble ships (A-Wings) can take more ion hits than less maneuverable, but tougher ships YT-1300s).
2) Pcs who are in an ionized ship are pretty much screwed. Once the ship hits it Maneuverability cap, there isn't much the Pcs can do other than wait, and hope that somebody doesn't blow them up or kep them ionized. |
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I like the repair roll idea. TRhe things I don't like about the RAW are:
1) Smaller, nimble ships (A-Wings) can take more ion hits than less maneuverable, but tougher ships YT-1300s). |
But you have somewhat fixed this with your MAN+HULL max ionization rule.
| Quote: | | 2) Pcs who are in an ionized ship are pretty much screwed. Once the ship hits it Maneuverability cap, there isn't much the Pcs can do other than wait, and hope that somebody doesn't blow them up or kep them ionized. |
True. But that's why they should either (a) get a better pilot, (b) run away from overwhelming odds, (c) have friends who can cover them in such a situation, or (d) get ready to be boarded.
I like (c) as it gives a character in another ship a chance to use a FP to do something heroic to save their buddies.
I only see (2) as a real problem for characters in a single ship without backup. And in a way, that is like a character running around on the ground solo. It can be fun, but it is more risky. If the attackers are using ion weapons there is a reasonable chance they will try to tractor or board the ionized vessel. So the GM can quickly move passed the you are helpless phase to the you should be getting ready to be boarded phase. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | I like the repair roll idea. TRhe things I don't like about the RAW are:
1) Smaller, nimble ships (A-Wings) can take more ion hits than less maneuverable, but tougher ships YT-1300s). |
But you have somewhat fixed this with your MAN+HULL max ionization rule. |
Cause & Effect. I came up with the max limit to help offset the RAW.
| Quote: | True. But that's why they should either (a) get a better pilot, (b) run away from overwhelming odds, (c) have friends who can cover them in such a situation, or (d) get ready to be boarded.
I like (c) as it gives a character in another ship a chance to use a FP to do something heroic to save their buddies. |
a) isn't really a short term option. We'd all like to have Han or Luke around to do the flying, but are stuck with the PC with the best skill. And sometimes even the guys with 7D flub the roll.
b) You can't run if the ship is suficnetly iopnized. Note that one shot from one ion gun can keep a YT-1300 from doing anything. So it isn't about overwhelming odds.
c) Good when you can get it. But many adventures (and group) foruc on the PCs using one freighter. And one of two hits will ionize any freighter to helplessness.
d) if you are lucky. You can just as easily get vaped.
| Quote: |
I only see (2) as a real problem for characters in a single ship without backup. And in a way, that is like a character running around on the ground solo. It can be fun, but it is more risky. |
But quite common in typical SW adventures, where the Pcs are all in one freighter. Basically, a frighter with 1D maneuverabilty get's zapped once, and the Pcs are helpless. With the ship dead they havwe no way to get out of there, and the low maneuverabilty means they have no warning. With the limits on Cp spending for vehicles, this is probably the most vulnerable situation that a PC can get into without doing something dumb. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I came up with the max limit to help offset the RAW. |
Seems like it will do the job.
| Quote: | | a) And sometimes even the guys with 7D flub the roll. |
That's why pilots have CPs and FPs.
| Quote: | | b) Note that one shot from one ion gun can keep a YT-1300 from doing anything. |
This tells me you may want to rethink the extra ionization results for damage over soak of > 16 points.
| Quote: | | c) And one of two hits will ionize any freighter to helplessness. |
If you have no friendlies, the goal is to not get hit. My ship-based players know this and they use combined actions (co-pilot assist) and spend FPs and CPs as needed to avoid getting hit.
| Quote: | | d) if you are lucky. You can just as easily get vaped. |
Depends on the tone and GM style. When I GM Star Wars I don't try to kill the PCs. This is for two reasons: (1) as the GM it is so easy to do that it isn't a challenge and it sure s@cks for them and. more importantly, (2) creating all new characters every third adventure is boring and inhibits creating an interesting saga or useful character connections - and I find those fun. As a GM, I am likely to use ion weapons against a solo PC ship for two reasons (1) I want to allow for (or even encourage the possibility) of the PCs being captured or (2) I want to use the ion cannon to increase the threat level and as a visibly clever NPC tactic to convey the cleverness or preparedness of the NPC opponent(s).
| Quote: | | With the limits on Cp spending for vehicles, this is probably the most vulnerable situation that a PC can get into without doing something dumb. |
Yes. I see it as a flaw in the rules actually. Since CPs can't be used to resist damage to the ship only to avoid it or to fix it after the fact and as you have noted, if your ship is ionized and out of control there is a potential valley of death until the ship is fixed. That's one reason I suggested allowing ship repair to deionize the ship faster. It would seem reasonable to me to allow a 1/2 skill roll to deionize in a single round. Again, it gives the tech something to do with his/her CPs. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Have you checked out my Ion damage rules?? See this thread.
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=726&highlight=ionization
Basically, rather than have it as RAW, you CHART out all the ships systems (kind of like for an X wing
Main power
Life support
Shields
Maneuvering thrusters
Ion drive (sublight)
Hyperdrive
Sensors
Main computer (includes comms)
Repulsor lift
Weapon 1 Lasers
Weapon 2 Proton torp launcher
R2 interface
And so on..
Each bracket of 4 over soak your damage is, you roll once for which system is shut down (d6 combat rounds). A system can be hit more than once from the same damage roll, each time adding another D6 rounds.
Since your repair rolls take a min of 2 rounds to do (By the RAW), you take 2 rounds off first, and if you make a repair roll (heroic+10 is what i set it at, though you may make it easier) to half the remaining time.
EG.
PC in above X wing (no add ons), gets hit by a customs frigate (SF Scale) Heavy Ion cannon, and takes 10 over soak. So that is 3 rolls on the system chart. He has 12 systems, so rolls 3d12.
First comes up Sensors, and he rolls 1d6 for 3 rounds its down (sensors kill off fire control for weapons as well)
Second comes up main power (so everything shuts down) for 4 rounds, while the third comes up maneuvering for 3 rounds.
First round he is down for the count, he gets hit by four more blasts causing 2 systems, 1 system, 5 systems and 3 systems for 11 more systems being affected.
Grand total after that is his engines are out for 8 rounds, life support for 2, sensors for 9, main power for 14, weapon 1 (lasers) for 3, R2 interface for 4 and Comms for 12.
He starts his repair roll for the power systems (without that nothing else matters), and after 2 rounds makes his repair roll.
if he succeeds (lets say he did) he knocks main power down from being 14 rounds of being out to (14-2 = 12/2 ) 6 rounds left.
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Grimace
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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How are ion cannons immobilizing YT-1300s with a single hit (or two)?
What ships are doing that?
Ion cannons aren't that prevelant on ships. Star Destroyers have them. Mon Cal ships have them. Y-Wings have them.
Y-Wings have equal ion damage to hull resistance, so it's not like it's going to be zapping the YT-1300 with each hit. Generally about a 50/50 chance of getting any result.
The capital ships are pretty disadvantaged at hitting the YT-1300. If the pilot is doing any dodging, they get piloting+maneuver (granted, on a base model there is no maneuver) + scale modifier to dodge. Now if that shot hits, there's a far better chance of the ion doing something substantial. But still, if an unmodified YT-1300 is tangling with a Star Destroyer or Mon Cal Cruiser, they deserve to get fried.
After all that, your idea isn't a bad one. I always felt there should be a chance that the ship systems were simply fried beyond recovery. I just made a seperate roll, usually at Moderate difficulty or greater, to see if the system maybe burned out permanently from an ion shot. So having a built-in factor that determined "damage" based on over-ionization isn't a bad thing. If a person cares to do the little extra bit of calculation, I think it would work.
Have you used this system much in play? How well does it work overall? |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I just treat damages of 16+ over soak as "Disabled" until repaired. I also let damage correlating to a conventional "Heavily Damaged" result roll over into a "Disabled" result after two good hits, in much the same way as conventional damage rolls over into "Severely Damaged".
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | How are ion cannons immobilizing YT-1300s with a single hit (or two)?
What ships are doing that? |
Pirate ships for one.
| Quote: |
Ion cannons aren't that prevelant on ships. Star Destroyers have them. Mon Cal ships have them. Y-Wings have them. |
They are not exactly rare either. Other ships do have them, inclduing some other fighters (B-Wings, Dianogas), and they are cheap and easy to get and install in other ships.
| Quote: |
Y-Wings have equal ion damage to hull resistance, so it's not like it's going to be zapping the YT-1300 with each hit. Generally about a 50/50 chance of getting any result. |
Yes, and "any result" will disable most freighters, since a ship suffering as many Controls Ionized results as it's maneuverability has it's contrls frozen for two turns. Any ship with 0D or 1D maneuverability is a dead duck if the ion damage beats it's hull roll.
Something like a pair of Diainogas will be a major threat to a YT-1300, and there isn't much the freighter can do about it. The fighters are faster, have a longer range, and the freighter is unlikely to get the time to jump to lightspeed.
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if an unmodified YT-1300 is tangling with a Star Destroyer or Mon Cal Cruiser, they deserve to get fried. |
Yup. Even a modfied YT-1300 is asking to get vaporized. If the Pcs are going after Sds they are lucky if they only get ionized. But even then, by RAW the SD could not cripple a ship with ion guns, just knock it out for a few rounds.
| Quote: |
After all that, your idea isn't a bad one. I always felt there should be a chance that the ship systems were simply fried beyond recovery. I just made a seperate roll, usually at Moderate difficulty or greater, to see if the system maybe burned out permanently from an ion shot. So having a built-in factor that determined "damage" based on over-ionization isn't a bad thing. If a person cares to do the little extra bit of calculation, I think it would work.
Have you used this system much in play? How well does it work overall? |
Yes & no. I have used it, but only for GM run Vulture droids. One of my PCs was a Padawan in charge on a squadron of Y-Wings and the ion gunners tened to gang up on some of the Vulture droids, to the point where I figured same would be damaged permanently. Ion guns have proven desvestating against droid starfighters. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | How are ion cannons immobilizing YT-1300s with a single hit (or two)?
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I have had in some battles, those little customs frigates (light ion cannons, cap scale) actually SMACK the pc's ships even WITH scale difference adding to their dodge.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Grimace wrote: | How are ion cannons immobilizing YT-1300s with a single hit (or two)?
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I have had in some battles, those little customs frigates (light ion cannons, cap scale) actually SMACK the pc's ships even WITH scale difference adding to their dodge. |
It doesn't take much. The key thing is that most freighters have low maneuverability codes (0D-1D) and can postentially be disabled by one hit.,
BTW, I didn't remember seeing your ion vairant. I'll have to give it a look. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Let me know what you think.
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