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Naaman
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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: Magnify Senses: how long does it last? |
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The rules for Magnify Senses indicates a time to use of three rounds. My understanding is that this is how long it takes to bring the force power into effect. No mention is made of how long the power lasts once activated, so it is difficult to determine whether a Jedi could use the power track down a ticking time bomb or monitor the horizon for an approaching threat.
The power does say that it's modified by proximity, which suggests that the Jedi has to have some sort of quarry before activating the power. This seems to suggest that if the Jedi successfully activates the power, he also succeeds in locating/identifying whatever he's looking for (maybe he's trying to determine by scent whether poison is present in food, and he actually identifies the specific poison used, even if he has never heard of or smelt it before).
It seems to me that magnify senses would be better as an enhancer to the Jedi's perception checks to notice or search for things. The power, as written, would allow the Jedi to physically observe the goings on of something on another planet. He could even smell the poison in a biscuit from across the entire galaxy with a roll of 35.
So instead, I think it might be better off as a Perception enhancer. For example, at the minimum difficulty, the Jedi adds +1 to all perception rolls (including search checks) to notice or look for something. At the highest difficulty, the Jedi adds a +4D bonus or something to these same rolls. The power should also have the option of being kept up.
What do you think? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Magnify Senses is a good example of a power that was poorly put together by WEG. As you mentioned, it is modified by proximity, but if you check the Proximity Modifier chart, it seems to indicate that a Jedi can see into another star system if he rolls high enough.
I wrote up a more detailed version that is a combination of Magnify Senses and Shift Senses. If you're interested, I'll post it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Magnify Senses is a good example of a power that was poorly put together by WEG. As you mentioned, it is modified by proximity, but if you check the Proximity Modifier chart, it seems to indicate that a Jedi can see into another star system if he rolls high enough. |
Just for kicks, if one of your players ever rolls this high, make sure he sees whatever was happening in that star system 1,000 years ago or whenever, to account for the travel time for the light! 
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I assume the power can be kept up, so no specific time duration. I agree that the 3 rounds should be the time required to adjust your sight, hearing, etc. and to adapt to the change. This prevents the Jedi from quickly flipping the power on and off and ensures that a pair of macrobinoculars is still a useful tool even for Jedi.
Magnify Senses
| Quote: | | Effect: This power allows a Jedi to increase the effectiveness of his normal senses to perceive things that are otherwise impossible without aid. He can hear noises beyond his normal hearing due to distance or softness – he can’t hear or see beyond normal species frequencies. Likewise, he can see normal visible things over distances that would normally require the use of macrobinoculars, and identify scents and odors that are normally too faint for human olfactory senses. |
Although the power doesn't specify an exact range, it is limited to "normal species frequencies" and acts as an enhancement of existing senses. I take the "distances that would normally require the use of macrobinoculars" to mean exactly that. So magnification similar to macrobinoculars is fine, but not magnification similar to the Hubble Telescope.  Though the proximity modiers have stellar ranges, the actual senses enhanced don't work at those distances even with the modifier. The power is vague, but the intent seems clear. To see how the vision and hearing should work, one need just watch a few episodes of the old TV series The Six Million Dollar Man / Woman. We always assume that only the Jedi using the power can actually hear the enhanced senses "boop-boop-boop-boop-boop" sound however. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I have always gone with "until dropped or wounded" for how long it lasts. BUT once you bring it up, that specific sense you magnify, is always that way.. No flipping it off and on, or to another sense. you have to drop it and bring it up again to switch sense.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Right. Jedi should be flipping people and things off anyways.
And if kept up, it causes a MAP. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Right. Jedi should be flipping people and things off anyways.
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"F you, refrigerator! F you, landspeeder mechanic!"
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well at least he is not flipping in hell..
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Naaman
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| Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | I assume the power can be kept up, so no specific time duration. I agree that the 3 rounds should be the time required to adjust your sight, hearing, etc. and to adapt to the change. This prevents the Jedi from quickly flipping the power on and off and ensures that a pair of macrobinoculars is still a useful tool even for Jedi.
Magnify Senses
| Quote: | | Effect: This power allows a Jedi to increase the effectiveness of his normal senses to perceive things that are otherwise impossible without aid. He can hear noises beyond his normal hearing due to distance or softness – he can’t hear or see beyond normal species frequencies. Likewise, he can see normal visible things over distances that would normally require the use of macrobinoculars, and identify scents and odors that are normally too faint for human olfactory senses. |
Although the power doesn't specify an exact range, it is limited to "normal species frequencies" and acts as an enhancement of existing senses. I take the "distances that would normally require the use of macrobinoculars" to mean exactly that. So magnification similar to macrobinoculars is fine, but not magnification similar to the Hubble Telescope. Though the proximity modiers have stellar ranges, the actual senses enhanced don't work at those distances even with the modifier. The power is vague, but the intent seems clear. To see how the vision and hearing should work, one need just watch a few episodes of the old TV series The Six Million Dollar Man / Woman. We always assume that only the Jedi using the power can actually hear the enhanced senses "boop-boop-boop-boop-boop" sound however. |
This still presents a problem if the Jedi does not know exactly what he is searching for or where it is located. And, successful activation of the power does what exactly? Does it reveal the information the Jedi seeks? For example, if the Jedi wants to improve his hearing, and he rolls just enough to succeed at the power, can he hear someone sneaking up behind him, even if the character rolls a 120 on his sneak roll? How would that be handled? I would think that it would require a perception check, but how much bonus does the Jedi get to notice the person sneaking?
And can the Jedi use the power to magnify his vision at very short range? For example, to look for a needle in a haystack? Or perhaps gain microscopic, rather than macroscopic vision?
It seems to me that even though the intent is "clear," the power is very poorly written because it assumes that the Jedi knows exactly what he is looking for and where to find it (he just can't detect it with his normal senses). That is why it's "modified by "proximity" and a successful roll indicates successful spotting of the quarry. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:00 am Post subject: |
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In the past i have seen many gms who let the jedi add 2-3 per D of sense to any perception/search rolls... so in that sneak case, he MIGHT still detect the guy.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm thinking that might be a good solution. I'm not sure if I like adding a bonus based on the sense skill, though. Mainly because the sense skill is already used for detection by more "mystical" means. I feel that if the power is designed to enhance the physical senses, it should provide a flat rate bonus, something more like the way enhance attribute works.
Does that make sense? I would think that if the power allows the Jedi to see as if he had macrobinoculars, the bonus could be as large as +4D or maybe even +5D. With a minimum success granting a bonus of +1D. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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OK..
Hows about
Sense roll to enhance senses..
0-5 over target number needed = +2 to perception rolls
6-10 = +1d+1
11-15 = +2d
16-20 = +2d+2
21-25 = +3d+1
26-30 = +4d
31+ = +5d
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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That's a nice break down. I think I'll just use it just like that.
As for MAPs, I think instead of applying a MAP (which would diminish the bonus), I'd just say that as soon as the Jedi takes any non-search/awareness roll, the power immediately drops.
As for the various effects (micro- vs macroscopic vision; detecting scents carried on the wind or subtle odors in a chemical; listening to sounds from very far away, or very faint, but close by sounds etc), I think the difficulty is going to have to be arbitrated by the GM as he sees fit on a case by case basis.
I'm also inclined to allow increasing multiple senses at an increased difficulty (say, +5 or +10 per sense included). |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:34 am Post subject: |
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As a related q.. lets say joe jedi has this up on say his hearing. BUT an enemy targets the area with a sonic grenade.. (or sight, against a flash bang)... Wouldn't it do MORE damage?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:20 am Post subject: |
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I think this was discussed on another topic a while back, and the theory was put forward that, because the Jedi was using Sense, the Force was actually bypassing his physical senses and feeding the enhanced information directly to his brain. If the Jedi had used Enhance Attribute to boost his Perception, then he would've been more vulnerable, because the Force was being used to boost his physical senses, rendering them more sensitive to sensory-oriented attacks.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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