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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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So, I'm working on a rule for Lightsaber combat that requires a Stamina roll as a free action at the end of every combat round. For each round of combat, the difficulty on the Stamina roll increases, with the amount of increase dependent on what the character was doing that round (attacking or defending, which Lightsaber Form they were using, etc.)
I have a pretty good handle on how I want to do it, but another question came up. I'm curious how I should apply Force enhancement to Stamina during combat. Enhance Attribute works fine on its own, but the system I'm looking at would involve up to half a dozen dice rolls per round, with attendant MAPs, so its likely that Enhance Attribute would have no effect other than to counter the MAP that the character picked up just for using it. I definitely think there needs to be some form of bonus to Stamina from the Force; what I'm looking for is suggestions on how to apply it.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I definitely think there needs to be some form of bonus to Stamina from the Force; what I'm looking for is suggestions on how to apply it. |
Maybe it should just be assumed as a part of lightsaber combat. Just drop in a penalty to non force users lightsaber fighting.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Maybe it should just be assumed as a part of lightsaber combat. Just drop in a penalty to non force users lightsaber fighting. |
I used to think that Lightsaber Combat made stamina irrelevant, but I think film and film novel evidence does not support it. There are multiple comments involving Jedi in lightsaber combat burning too much energy, and you can see Jedi in the films appearing winded after a fight. I definitely think Jedi should receive a boost to Stamina while in combat, as they are depending on the Force, but not a complete exemption.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Maybe it should just be assumed as a part of lightsaber combat. Just drop in a penalty to non force users lightsaber fighting. |
I used to think that Lightsaber Combat made stamina irrelevant, but I think film and film novel evidence does not support it. There are multiple comments involving Jedi in lightsaber combat burning too much energy, and you can see Jedi in the films appearing winded after a fight. I definitely think Jedi should receive a boost to Stamina while in combat, as they are depending on the Force, but not a complete exemption. |
I agree. I was trying to suggest that force-enhancement of stamina was part of lightsaber combat, but because of everything else a Jedi was using the force and his body for at the time, it wasn't always enough. So you could still make the stamina checks, and ignore Force-enhanced stamina as a given. Then you add a penalty to non-force users' stamina checks so that the Jedi would have an advantage in that area.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I was trying to suggest that force-enhancement of stamina was part of lightsaber combat, but because of everything else a Jedi was using the force and his body for at the time, it wasn't always enough. So you could still make the stamina checks, and ignore Force-enhanced stamina as a given. Then you add a penalty to non-force users' stamina checks so that the Jedi would have an advantage in that area. |
Hmm. So maybe, since Lightsaber Combat can be kept up, the Jedi gets a bonus to Stamina based on the initial Control roll, and that bonus lasts as long as he keeps Lightsaber Combat up. If he drops Lightsaber Combat for any reason, he loses the bonus, but if he brings Lightsaber Combat up again, he gets a new bonus. I think giving a bonus to Jedi through the Force is more appropriate than penalizing a non-FS just because they are facing a Jedi.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So, I'm working on a rule for Lightsaber combat that requires a Stamina roll as a free action at the end of every combat round. |
Two points and a suggestion:
(1) I have used stamina and fatigure systems in the past, e.g. RQIII, and they seem to slow play and or add a lot of booking for minimal impact. So in general I am not too keen on such systems. What you are doing is, admittedly a little different, which brings me to (2).
(2) I'm not wild about having to make an additional roll every round, even as a free action. It slows down play. At first the roll should be easily made, so it initially does nothing except slow down play. It is only in an extended combat that the chance of failure rises to the point that the roll is meaningful.
My suggestion: use something like a take 3 or take 2 rule and only start rolling once the difficulty is > the take 3 or take 2 number. So a Jedi with a 4D+1 stamina would only start rolling once the stamina difficulty is greater than say 13 (for take 3) or 9 (for take 2). |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| Bren wrote: | | I'm not wild about having to make an additional roll every round, even as a free action. It slows down play. At first the roll should be easily made, so it initially does nothing except slow down play. It is only in an extended combat that the chance of failure rises to the point that the roll is meaningful. |
I agree. The only reason I'm considering it is that you and I are pursuing two relatively parallel courses where extended combat is actually a possibility (even more so with mine since I'm including the stalemate result).
| Quote: | | My suggestion: use something like a take 3 or take 2 rule and only start rolling once the difficulty is > the take 3 or take 2 number. So a Jedi with a 4D+1 stamina would only start rolling once the stamina difficulty is greater than say 13 (for take 3) or 9 (for take 2). |
An excellent suggestion. The fewer rolls the better, especially if I include my Dun Moch rules into the system.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | I'm not wild about having to make an additional roll every round, even as a free action. It slows down play. At first the roll should be easily made, so it initially does nothing except slow down play. It is only in an extended combat that the chance of failure rises to the point that the roll is meaningful. |
I agree. The only reason I'm considering it is that you and I are pursuing two relatively parallel courses where extended combat is actually a possibility (even more so with mine since I'm including the stalemate result). |
Maybe it should be every minute, then, rather than each turn. There aren't many things I can think of that you can do for five seconds but can't do for ten...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Maybe it should be every minute, then, rather than each turn. There aren't many things I can think of that you can do for five seconds but can't do for ten... |
That would put it at a roll every 12 rounds instead of just one. Considering that I'm only looking at increasing the Stamina difficulty by 1 or 2 points per round and allowing them a bonus from their Control dice roll, making them roll every minute would mean that combat would have to last as long as half an hour for it to take effect. I want the roll to be a much more looming presence in the fight, especially to the player whose character is quickly racking up difficulty modifiers for going on the offense with Form IV, or trying to defend against the power of Form V.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Maybe it should be every minute, then, rather than each turn. There aren't many things I can think of that you can do for five seconds but can't do for ten... |
That would put it at a roll every 12 rounds instead of just one. Considering that I'm only looking at increasing the Stamina difficulty by 1 or 2 points per round and allowing them a bonus from their Control dice roll, making them roll every minute would mean that combat would have to last as long as half an hour for it to take effect. I want the roll to be a much more looming presence in the fight, especially to the player whose character is quickly racking up difficulty modifiers for going on the offense with Form IV, or trying to defend against the power of Form V. |
Well you could boost the difficulty by more points. I haven't played or GMed any lightsaber combats, so I'm just trying to toss out some suggestions. They'll probably need to be adjusted some before they're useful.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: Stamina in Lightsaber Combat |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Well you could boost the difficulty by more points. I haven't played or GMed any lightsaber combats, so I'm just trying to toss out some suggestions. They'll probably need to be adjusted some before they're useful. |
Possibly in the future, if this version doesn't work out. For now, I like the pressure of the added roll at the end of the round as the character gets more and more tired. I think it will add to the tension and the excitement of a duel, but there is only one way to find out.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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One possibility might be to give characters a certain number of "free" rounds before they start making stamina rolls. That would reduce bookkeeping and give you the same effect.
For example, lets say that character must make Stamina rolls after their Stamina dice in rounds. if they make the Stamina roll, they are okay, if not, they are winded for a -1D MAP penalty. Additional rolls are made every Stamina dice in rounds. Each time a character succeeds in the Stamina roll, he the difficulty for the Stamina roll goes up one level. Once the character fails it drops back to the base difficulty.
Lightsaber Combat could give a flat bonus to the Stamina dice (say 1/3rd the Control dice?).
If you are using Lightsaer Forms, then each form could have a different base difficult, to reflect how physically demanding it is.
If you are going with the idea of Forms affecting the breakdown of Lightsaber Combat dice, you could have some of the Control dice from LS Combat go to stamina instead of damage. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | One possibility might be to give characters a certain number of "free" rounds before they start making stamina rolls. That would reduce bookkeeping and give you the same effect. |
That would tie in well with Bren's "taking a 2" suggestion by not requiring a roll until the Stamina difficulty reached a certain level. As far as the control bonus to Stamina, I'm thinking of having it based on how well the character rolled when raising Lightsaber Combat, probably using the same scale I used for my Dun Moch rules (as in +1D for every 12 points)
| Quote: | If you are using Lightsaer Forms, then each form could have a different base difficult, to reflect how physically demanding it is.
If you are going with the idea of Forms affecting the breakdown of Lightsaber Combat dice, you could have some of the Control dice from LS Combat go to stamina instead of damage. |
The way I'm going is that each Form will have a Stamina Difficulty Modifier that accumulates per round. The modifier will be higher with some forms (Form IV with its acrobatics) and lower with others (Form III with its conservative defense), while others (Form V on offense) will add an additional modifier because of the amount of energy required to counter it. I don't want to get into breaking down the Lightsaber dice into a pool, as my system is already relatively complicated as it is.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | One possibility might be to give characters a certain number of "free" rounds before they start making stamina rolls. That would reduce bookkeeping and give you the same effect. |
You would have fewer rolls to make, but still a bit of book keeping since everyone will start rolling at a different round #. And if you add in different rates for different forms, even more book keeping. In my experience this kind of bookeeping was always the bane of fatigue in RQIII. For me, tracking stamina/fatigue in combat just seems to need too much out of game record keeping and/or additional rolling to justify the advantage of the more detailed simulation. Though I can see the appeal for crmcneil's more detailed forms. And if you are in a Clone Wars or Old Republic campaign, maybe there will actually be enough PC lightsaber duels to justify a very detailed set of mechanics for resolving the duel. And if all the players are playing Jedi, then they may all be able to participate in an extended, detailed, and complex duel.
For those of us in the Rebellion time frame, maybe not so much. I think over 3 years game time, 10+ years real world time, my Jedi has been in less than half a dozen lightsaber duels (counting anything where the opponent had either a lightsaber or a weapon like an electrostaff or a Sith-metal blade that could stand up to a lightsaber) as a duel.
So I feel I need to balance complexity of a duel or combat subsystem against the rarity of it seeing use.
In an unrelated, but similar example, I wouldn't design an extremely complex subsystem to simulate slicing in Star Wars, because in our games it is done somewhat infrequently, and because even when it is done, it tends to be a solo activity and hence it is boring for the other players to just sit as an audience. We have used multiple rolls for slicing when it was important, but never many, many rolls. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't find fatigue to be that much of a bookkeeping issue in RQIII. I know lots of people did, but to me, ticking of 1 FP each around was easy. The penalties were so low that you could ignore them until you had a close roll.
But my method COULD be streamlined. I7d probably go with a Stamina roll each minute, for everyone, and slide the difficulty to macth the level of expertion/Form.
From what I've seen in the Films, the duelists don't seem to tire until after the fight. Then someone signs and his shoulder sag.
Of coruse, my wacky modification to your dueling rules does the same thing without the rolls using the skill dice penalty. |
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