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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:04 am Post subject: Troop Complements |
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In another post, the subject of troop capacity has come up and got me thinking. Starships in the WEG stats have troop complements already listed, but there is no notation for what kind of troops they are. Since the Empire has regular Imperial Army, Stormtroopers, CompForce Assault, and Naval Infantry. we know that Star Destroyers carry a full "legion" of stormtroopers (whatever that works out to), but that's it. I have some ideas for separating things out, but I'd like some input.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:52 am Post subject: |
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I had always assumed that was just the number carried and who or what they were was up to the GM.
For example, a Star Destroyer would probably be carrying some army or naval troopers and a few stormtrooper squads. A Hutt ship would probably carry varied mercenaries, and my player's mothership is carrying pirates.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 2:24 am Post subject: |
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I usually have gone 25% Stormies, 5% stormie specials such as scout troops, snow/sand troops. 40% reg army troops, 20% Compforce and 10% navy troops.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: |
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For Imperial vessels, considering how many Army troops are carried by the ships of the Assault Fleets, I went with straight stormtroopers for Imperial Ships. Naval Infantry (according to their description) double as ship's crew for a lot of support functions, so I use them for non-Stormtrooper armed encounters.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have set percentages for the troop types.
I will pick troop types based on story factors and how I see the troops being used. As I see it, Imperial Naval vessels use non-Naval troops for the same reason that British men-of-war in the 18th century used Marines - to avoid and to supress mutinies. Thus I put stormtrooper detachments on most naval vessels. Here the stormtroopers fulfill the marine role and also provide a line of authority and reporting more directly to the Emperor and outside of the Naval (or Army) chain of command.
Generally I use Naval troopers for security on Naval bases (because a second over riding theme is very strong inter-service rivalry). The Navy doesn't want the army guarding their bases. So they invented Naval troopers for base and station security. The Death Star is weapons platform and mobile base, hence Naval troopers on the Death Star. I don't see the Naval troopers as being involved in a lot of action, aside from customs and boarding Again, bases will typically have a stormtrooper detachment for additional security.
This inter-service rivalry and lack of cooperation also helps explain the assignment of TIE fighters directly to army ground support units.
I use CompForce for human wave attacks (similar to what the Russians sometimes used in WWII) and for politically motivated police, anti-alien, and species cleansing/genocidal actions. Since CompForce is politically motivated, they tend to have the least professional and most political officers, compared to the other branches - hence the human wave assaults. Also, CompForce exists as another check on the army (in addition to the stormtroopers).
I assume that Palpatine, much like Hitler, prefers an overlapping set of military and espionage units with Palpatine at the center as the only one with full knowledge, rather than a clear, streamlined, and efficient chain of command. Over confidence is not Palpatine's only weakness. His lack of trust in his subordinates, and hence the intentional inefficiencies in his system, is another key weakness. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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All excellent points.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: |
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I tend to view the troop complements as a possible compliment, not necessarily a standard complement.
I don't think the Empire (or anyone else)just leaves 7,000 troops lounging around on each ISD, on the off chance that they might be needed someday.
Instead, I think the standard complement is probably much lower. Maybe 5-10% of the full complement to serve as marines/shock troops for limited engagements, prize crews for captured vessels, and a few men to hold a ground site, when necessary.
The full complement would only be used for specific missions, and then tailored to suit the needs of the mission, much like what Bren mentioned.
I could certainty see someone putting together some particular combinations of troops for particular types of missions.Especially for the smaller compliments ( I just can't see sending down a 7000 man RECON group). |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I don't think they would just be lounging around. These troops assist with internal security, as well as providing a rapid reaction force for ground assault. Also, since it's pretty well established that clones make up a sizeable percentage of stormtroopers (likely a large majority), there is no reason Palpatine can't just pump out as many of them as he wants and put some on every single ship and military base.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Your welcome Whill. I like trying to explain why the Empire doesn't just crush the Rebellion. I tend to assume that throughout most of the Rebellion period, senior members of the Empire are not really that worried about the Rebellion. They use the Rebellion as a justification for the erosion of personal freedoms and for justifying the taxes needed to support a very large military. But most of the military and the bureaucracy spend most of their energy on internal politics, on one upping their internal rivals, and on curring favor and getting closer to Palpatine. Palpatine spends much of his energy on playing his minions off against each other and ensuring that no one can rival his position.
Regarding SD troop complements: I am a bit ambivalent here. I understand the argument about not wasting troops so that ships may not routinely carry a full complement. But since SD's are designed to project power (similar to 19th-20th C battleships and 20th-21st C carriers) that it would make sense to provide them with troops in the event they are needed immediately. As I suggested, I think the troops are there to discourage mutiny. The number of troops on an SD ~10,000 is relatively small when compared with the number of troops listed for system and sector armed forces. In addition, the troops have to be based somewhere. A mobile SD doesn't seem any more of a waste of troops than a behind the lines army base. And it isn't practical to have troops in action continuously.
Regarding the use of Clones as a solution to troop needs: It seems like for some reason, the Empire uses many non clone troops. None of the Army, Navy (including TIE pilots), or officer core that we see in the films appear to be clones. If the stormtroopers are more loyal and are cheap and easy to replicate it seems hard to fathom why Palpatine wouldn't use an all clone military. Thus I tend to think that the mixed clone/non-clone military is an attempt to ensure no one force has a monopoly on military power. Palpatine may fear that someone could subvert the clones and thus has the normal human military as a potential counter to a rebellious clone army. In addition, I tend to assume that clone reinforcements are limited in number - for whatever reason e.g. cost, difficulty in the process, limited clone facilities, etc. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I don't think they would just be lounging around. These troops assist with internal security, as well as providing a rapid reaction force for ground assault. Also, since it's pretty well established that clones make up a sizeable percentage of stormtroopers (likely a large majority), there is no reason Palpatine can't just pump out as many of them as he wants and put some on every single ship and military base. |
I can thinkof a few good reasons, mostly economics.
I suppose it depends on how you see the Empire. hey way I see it, the Empire is really the only military force of any signficant size or power during Palpatine's reign, and I don7t think they really need to max out the complements the entire fleet. Note that the troop compliments are listed as passengers, and IMO more a sign of what they can be used for rather than what is carried on a day to day basis.
I just don't think the Empire needs all it's ships ready to be deployed as a Rapid Response Force. Some of the navy might be set up that way, but probably not the majority. If it were that way, then the Empire would need more troop transports so they could move thier forces from one world to the next (no room on thier ships).
But, considering that it took 20 years for the rebel alliance to make it fight real strike, I don7t really see the need for maintaining a huge compliment to supress a galazy that doesn't seem to be putting upo much resistance.
Plus, my thinking is much like Bren, regarding the Empire's view of the Rebel Alliance. Basically the rebels are no real threat, and make a great scapegoat, and a good justification for enacting more draconic laws.
Now if the Empire had somebody to fight... |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ...I just don't think the Empire needs all it's ships ready to be deployed as a Rapid Response Force. Some of the navy might be set up that way, but probably not the majority. If it were that way, then the Empire would need more troop transports so they could move thier forces from one world to the next (no room on thier ships)... |
Good point. Having free space would allow SDs to be used for some routine troop movement. However, given the numbers for the Imperial army, warships just can't really move a significant fraction of the ground forces so there is still going to be a real need for a large transport force.
But in a way this is perhaps just another reflection of the lack of reality in Star Wars and in much of sci-fi generally when dealing with ground actions against a multi-planet or galactic empire. The numbers seen in the SW films, in much if not all of the EU, and in the Imperial Sourcebook are grossly insufficient to take or hold a planet on the ground. Compare the Star Wars troop numbers to the number of troops, tanks, etc. engaged in WWII. The only way the Empire could actually take over a planet with a significant, planetary size military would be by orbital bombardment and the threat of orbital bombardment. But that moves action from a character scale to a fleet or Death Star scale, which makes PCs basically irrelevant. Which makes for a non-space opera movie, book, or RPG.
So if we want the RPG to look like the movies, we basically need to suspend some aspect of logistical military reality. I think SDs need a significant number of troops for internal security and to support any particular ground action that may occur. But I think atgxtg makes a good point that by not having SDs routinely carry a full troop complement, there is room for SDs to act as auxiliary troop shuttles and, perhaps even more to my liking, to allow the actual troop complement to be customized based on what forces are available for the SD's expected mission.
At a minimum, I think SDs would always have a battalion of stormtroopers and a force of speeders and walkers to allow for impromtu ground operations, ship security, and security for landings/dockings. But, depending on their expected mission, they may be significantly under the full ~10,000 troop maximum that they can carry. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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I sort of wondered if maybe there was some other power that the Empire needed to worry about. That big military presence would make more sense if they was somebody out there that the Empire had to "protect against".
But, since the primary source material (so far) has not much happening for two decades, I wonder why the big buildup?
Maybe, there was some meance in between the Clone Wars and the Rebellion? What if it took the Empire a lot longer to hunt down the Jedi and the remaining Separatists forces than we are lead to believe?
I could easily imagine the Jedi joining with the remaining Speratsits after Order 66, and fighting a guerrilla action for years. It is a natural piring up, and would give the Empire all the excuse it would need to a big buildup. Routing it out would take years, and could explain why it took so long for the Rebel Alliance to get going. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | But, since the primary source material (so far) has not much happening for two decades, I wonder why the big buildup? |
Another good question.
Perhaps the buildup is a good excuse to wear uniforms and have parades?
Also, the (human) troop/ship buildup cows the aliens in the Empire, who actually greatly outnumber the humans, and allows Palpatine to continue the centralization of military power that began with the Grand Army of the Republic.
You do raise a good point. Some of the EU material suggests that Palpatine was anticipating the Vong (or some other threat). I'm not that fond of the NJO period so I tend to ignore all that. We don't really know what Palpatine was up to. Two possible options:
(1) Since the Sith like the whole "always two" and are the dark half of a Manachaeistic philosophy and ontology, perhaps Palpatine was setting up a new dichotomy between alien and human as some Sith-like long term game of playing off the two sides. He seemed very successful at increasing his personnel power running both sides of the Clone Wars. Maybe the big human/clone based military is the opening move in a new version of this.
(2) We see suggestions of a humans vs. aliens thread in the New Order Nazi-like philosophy and art and also in books such as the Krytos Trap with it's anti alien biological warfare that reminds one of Nazi-like final solution. Perhaps extermination of one side (or the other) is Palpatine's goal. Why? Who knows?
(3) Some EU material e.g. Luceno's Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader indicate that Palpatine wants to discover how to have eternal life. Perhaps some sort of massive genocide is a component of the required Sith Sorcery?
(4) Sort of back to (1) maybe Palpatine just wants continued war for his own amusement or because it keeps the masses preoccupied and the potential threat justifies the repressive actions of the Empire which help keep Palps in power.
(5) The multiple military organizations provide additional tracks or tracks for power (along with politics, the bureaucracy, CompNor, and business). This allows for advancement without actually creating an effective rival for Palps. Thus the military buildup allows the scope to create lots and lots of generals and admirals with the tangible signs (uniforms, subordinates, medals) of power and status. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Also, if you read Outbound Flight by Timothy Zahn, there is some mention that Palpatine was already aware of the Yuuzhan Vong, and the massive military buildup was him planning ahead for their invasion.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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