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Mikael Hasselstein
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: What sort of government rules the Galaxy? |
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I'm a political scientist that studies international governance. As such, I think its an interesting question to ask what sort of government are the Old/New Republic and the Galactic Empire, and what sort of RW models might be analogous.
It strikes me that the New Republic (just after the Rebellion Era) is one that is like the UN with ambitions of being like the EU. It pretends to be able to provide security for the Galaxy and have a comprehensive scope. It would also like to facilitate an open trading system.
The Empire, on the other hand, is more like Nazi Germany in Europe - a totalitarian hegemon with brutal military enforcement.
But what was the Old Republic? Was it like the UN, with a meaningless talking shop in the General Assembly (ie. the Senate)? Or was it more like the EU with extensive institutional arrangements that, to a large extent, determine laws on the different worlds (or, member states, in the EU's case)?
Or are American parallels more apt: the New/Old Republic like the Articles of Confederation with the Empire more like the Northern occupation of the South in the late 1860s and 1870s... (except, of course, with tons of slavery, rather than the reverse)? |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| It goes without saying, of course, that the true RW-parallel is with Rome. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Old Republic - seems like a very loose confederation with little to no central government control of the individul planets. Slavery may have been illegal, since Amidala seems unfamiliar with slavery as a system when she is on non-Republican Tatooine. So it is probably a bit like the UN or the League of Nations.
Empire - seems to be a cross between the Augustan Imperium with Nazi Germany with perhaps just a bit of Stalinist totalitarian USSR thrown in for additional paranoia.
New Republic - seems like post-Revolutionary - pre-Civil War United States. Like the US pre-Civil War they seem to be still struggling with the Planet/systems rights and powers vs. Federal rights and powers questions.
If you like political science you might want to scan past GM threads. There has been a fair amount of discussion. Whill did a nice long post on how he had the Imperium organized in his campaign. It echoed a bit of Augustan Rome.
These threads: this, this, and this had analogies to Nazi Germany as well as comparing the Rebellion to the US Revolution. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Old Republic - seems like a very loose confederation with little to no central government control of the individul planets. Slavery may have been illegal, since Amidala seems unfamiliar with slavery as a system when she is on non-Republican Tatooine. So it is probably a bit like the UN or the League of Nations. |
Aha - so how frequently were there wars/hostilities between different political entities - such a Naboo and the Trade Federation under the Old Republic. From that perspective, to what degree did the Empire bring a more peaceful order?
| Bren wrote: | | Empire - seems to be a cross between the Augustan Imperium with Nazi Germany with perhaps just a bit of Stalinist totalitarian USSR thrown in for additional paranoia. |
But to what degree does the Empire determine the politics on the (thousands of) thousands of worlds? If the Empire is totalitarian, it would seek to completely permeate nearly all of those societies (or, at least, the human ones) with its propaganda. However, if it is merely an authoritarian regime, it would simply be content with remaining in power with the threat of force. Political systems (such as the Hutts and the Hapans) would be left to their own devices so long as they pay the Imperial taxes.
The way the Empire has been written, it sounds like there are elements for both.
| Bren wrote: | | New Republic - seems like post-Revolutionary - pre-Civil War United States. Like the US pre-Civil War they seem to be still struggling with the Planet/systems rights and powers vs. Federal rights and powers questions. |
At the risk of being America-centric (  ), I think that it's manifest that you're right that this is where the inspiration comes from. I think it opens up a lot of possible intrigues. In the aftermath of the American Revolution, there was bitter partisanship and furious debate about the future of the republic. We see a little of that in the Zahn books. I cannot recall much from the other books set in roughly that time era... because those books were pretty horrid.
| Bren wrote: | | If you like political science you might want to scan past GM threads. There has been a fair amount of discussion. Whill did a nice long post on how he had the Imperium organized in his campaign. It echoed a bit of Augustan Rome. |
I don't seem to have found that particular post. What thread is it in?
| Bren wrote: | | These threads: this, this, and this had analogies to Nazi Germany as well as comparing the Rebellion to the US Revolution. |
Thank you! |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Based on the Dark Horse comics, it seems like there were a number of conflicts over the past 5000 years of the Republic. It is a little unclear how frequent or extensive they were and it is even a bit unclear how many of these are conflicts between different member states of the Republic, between a member state and an non-Republican actor, or between the Republic itself and an outside actor. If I had to guess, I would imagine there were all of the above at different times. Using the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire (a far flung set of colonies, conquered kingdoms, and client states) and then the transition from a Republican government controlling what is in effect an empire to the Augustan Empire as models, I would imagine that conflicts like the Trade Federation Blockade became more frequent in the late Galactic Republic.
I think in the SW Imperium, the conflicts are less between member states than between Rebel states and the central government. In addition there is a lot of oppression and violence initiated by the government and directed at subpopulations of the Empire, especially non-humans or anti-Imperial forces. The Clone Wars stories and cartoons along with the Essential Atlas provide data that would allow us to see the Rebellion as a continuation, in a way, of the ideals of the Separatist Movement. Supplemented by Senators and Worlds from the Old Republic like Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, Bail Organan, the planet Alderaan, etc.
I don't think the Empire determines politics on individual worlds. I think Imperial rule on planets and sectors is delegated to the Moffs and Grand Moffs, while COMPNOR attempts to create a humanist, pan-Galactic New Order and new culture. Despite the seeming pan-Galactic nature of the New Order, I see this as part of Palpatines modus operandi of dividing power and dividing the governed. The New Order pits humans (predominant in New Order culture) against non-humans as a way of reinforcing an us and them mentality. Similarly, I suspect that the Empire attempts to pit one alien species against another. Trandoshans vs. Wookiees. In Elrood Sector, Gamorreans vs Coynites. I'm sure there are others. As far as the Hutts and the Hapans, I don't think the Hutts are part of the Empire. (Not sure about the Hapans.) I would view them like some of the many client states or independent states around Rome. The Nabataean kingdom centered at Petra in the 1st century AE would be an example.
Regarding Whill's history try here for starters. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Based on the Dark Horse comics, it seems like there were a number of conflicts over the past 5000 years of the Republic. |
Right, I've been noticing mentions to them in The Essential Atlas and Wookieepedia. Of course, they seem describe those as great conflicts between Good and Evil (Jedi & Sith). For thousands of years of history, those are probably just the huge all-encompassing conflicts.
However, I imagine that there are plenty of smaller wars and LICs (low intensity conflicts) that get waged back and forth between factions, if not the equivalent of 'states'.
| Bren wrote: | | It is a little unclear how frequent or extensive they were and it is even a bit unclear how many of these are conflicts between different member states of the Republic, between a member state and an non-Republican actor, or between the Republic itself and an outside actor. If I had to guess, I would imagine there were all of the above at different times. Using the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire (a far flung set of colonies, conquered kingdoms, and client states) and then the transition from a Republican government controlling what is in effect an empire to the Augustan Empire as models, I would imagine that conflicts like the Trade Federation Blockade became more frequent in the late Galactic Republic. |
If Attack of the Clones is to be believed, the Republic's military forces were not particularly extensive, because Palpatine has to engineer the secret creation of a clone army. To me that does not sound like an Roman-style republic which was a political entity based on military power.
Perhaps the Old Republic was more like the UN or the EU - the former being a security regime that relies on member states to volunteer the military capacities, while the latter is not (really) a security regime at all.
In either case what member state(s) was (were) the hegemonic powers that kept the peace? If there was (were) none - I don't think we can presume that there was much peace. Was it just the Jedi? Perhaps under an EU-model there was some big war (described in the comics and TEA) that created a 'never again' culture that eschewed war. But given how many fighters and droid armies there are, this does not seem likely.
| Bren wrote: | | I think in the SW Imperium, the conflicts are less between member states than between Rebel states and the central government. |
Quite likely. Were there rebel 'states', however, or was the Rebel Alliance essentially a domestic resistance movement with the assistance of some oppressed aliens?
| Bren wrote: | | In addition there is a lot of oppression and violence initiated by the government and directed at subpopulations of the Empire, especially non-humans or anti-Imperial forces. The Clone Wars stories and cartoons along with the Essential Atlas provide data that would allow us to see the Rebellion as a continuation, in a way, of the ideals of the Separatist Movement. Supplemented by Senators and Worlds from the Old Republic like Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, Bail Organa, the planet Alderaan, etc. |
Right, so more a domestic resistance movement.
| Bren wrote: | | I don't think the Empire determines politics on individual worlds. I think Imperial rule on planets and sectors is delegated to the Moffs and Grand Moffs, while COMPNOR attempts to create a humanist, pan-Galactic New Order and new culture. |
So, how is rule by (Grand) Moffs not the same as imperial rule? They seem to all be wearing Imperial uniforms in EpIII. Moffs rule sectors, which include individual systems/planets. With, what I interpret as a very uniformist political culture, it doesn't seem to me like the Empire would be so pragmatic as to rule each planet differently, depending on local conditions.
| Bren wrote: | | Despite the seeming pan-Galactic nature of the New Order, I see this as part of Palpatines modus operandi of dividing power and dividing the governed. The New Order pits humans (predominant in New Order culture) against non-humans as a way of reinforcing an us and them mentality. Similarly, I suspect that the Empire attempts to pit one alien species against another. Trandoshans vs. Wookiees. In Elrood Sector, Gamorreans vs Coynites. I'm sure there are others. As far as the Hutts and the Hapans, I don't think the Hutts are part of the Empire. (Not sure about the Hapans.) I would view them like some of the many client states or independent states around Rome. The Nabataean kingdom centered at Petra in the 1st century AE would be an example. |
That seems to contradict my assessment above, though your version sounds more like an authoritarian regime than a totalitarian one. But, given complete control over communication and mass media channels, the Emperor does not have to worry as much about his regime being, in actuality, different from how it is portrayed.
| Bren wrote: | | Regarding Whill's history try here for starters. |
Thanks! |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
If Attack of the Clones is to be believed, the Republic's military forces were not particularly extensive, because Palpatine has to engineer the secret creation of a clone army. To me that does not sound like an Roman-style republic which was a political entity based on military power.
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Military power doesn't sound like George Lucas's intended basis of the Republic, but as anyone who has frequented this board in the last few months can probably tell you, I don't care about piddling details like that!  It could be that the republic did have a large military, but the clone army was created so that public opinion wouldn't turn against the war due to the cost in lives.
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Azai
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:02 am Post subject: |
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My question would be, what is the government control or government body of the outer rim in both the Old republic and the Empire. Many of these planets aren't new, and have been known for 4,000 years or so...
Yet in the Rise of the Empire, it seems they still are trying to control or discover many planets out there. And with the Old Republic it seems that the Republic "doesn't exist" in many parts.
Does it mean it official doesn't? Or doesn't have real power? |
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Kemper Boyd
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | Does it mean it official doesn't? Or doesn't have real power? |
A bit of both in my opinion. In my game, the Empire's grasp on the Outer Rim is very tenuous apart from large populated worlds and important trade routes. One of my players plays a Grand Moff and was told by his aide that the only way sometimes to tell which worlds have seceeded or declared for the Rebellion is that the yearly taxes stop coming in. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | However, I imagine that there are plenty of smaller wars and LICs (low intensity conflicts) that get waged back and forth between factions, if not the equivalent of 'states'. |
Stark Hyperspace War is an example.
Also, I am realizing that 'states' is probably not the most accurate term. Some actors are states others are Glactic Corporations or Corporate Cartels. We may need a different word to describe actors predominatantly located within the Republic/Empire whether states, associations of states, corporations, or cartels - and actors located outside the Republic/Empire.
| Quote: | | If Attack of the Clones is to be believed, the Republic's military forces were not particularly extensive, because Palpatine has to engineer the secret creation of a clone army. To me that does not sound like an Roman-style republic which was a political entity based on military power. |
It's not a perfect analogy. The early Roman Republic did not have a large standing army. That was more a evolution of the growth of far-flung colonies and conquered kingdoms in the later Republic. The early Roman military was more of a militia. It was only later under Marius that the truly full-time professional army developed. I like to think, and there is some support for this in the films and the EU, that the Clones are not the only forces of the Republic though the are perhaps the largest or the most active during the Clone Wars. I see this as somewhat like the older Republic, but sharing more of a Confederation of states (and non state actors) more like the UN.
| Quote: | | In either case what member state(s) was (were) the hegemonic powers that kept the peace? |
Good question. No idea really.
| Quote: | | Quite likely. Were there rebel 'states', however, or was the Rebel Alliance essentially a domestic resistance movement with the assistance of some oppressed aliens? |
Mon Calamari seems to be a Rebel planet. You would need the cooperation of at least the upper oceans and surface of the planet to create the Mon Cal cruisers for the Rebel fleet. Alderaan might have been an example, though the Empire destroyed most of the evidence.
| Quote: | | Right, so more a domestic resistance movement. |
Yeah. That's why it gets described as a Rebellion or a Civil War.
| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | I don't think the Empire determines politics on individual worlds. I think Imperial rule on planets and sectors is delegated to the Moffs and Grand Moffs, while COMPNOR attempts to create a humanist, pan-Galactic New Order and new culture. |
So, how is rule by (Grand) Moffs not the same as imperial rule? They seem to all be wearing Imperial uniforms in EpIII. Moffs rule sectors, which include individual systems/planets. With, what I interpret as a very uniformist political culture, it doesn't seem to me like the Empire would be so pragmatic as to rule each planet differently, depending on local conditions. |
I envision it more as the Grand Moffs are there to keep the systems in line, prevent Rebellion, and ensure that taxes are collected and flow to the central government. But that the day-to-day affairs of the planet are generally left alone - aside from a heavy dose of Imperial propaganda and a splash of New Order arts and culture.
| Quote: | | That seems to contradict my assessment above, though your version sounds more like an authoritarian regime than a totalitarian one. But, given complete control over communication and mass media channels, the Emperor does not have to worry as much about his regime being, in actuality, different from how it is portrayed. |
Without looking it up, I don't think I know the definitional difference between authoritarian and totalitarian government. I think of Palpatine as a tyrant in the classical Greek and Roman sense. And I don't think Palpatine cares that much what people think and believe (except for the force users) as much as he cares about controlling their actions. I see Palps as being very concerned with control. Feelings and actions are just additional levers for exerting control. I think COMPNOR actually cares about what people think and believe. Though many of the upper ranks are cynical manipulators hungry for power, I believe many of the mid and lower ranks as well as a few at the top, sincerely believe, or have been effectively conditioned to believe, in the Human Supremacist New Order dogma. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I am realizing that 'states' is probably not the most accurate term. Some actors are states others are Glactic Corporations or Corporate Cartels. We may need a different word to describe actors predominatantly located within the Republic/Empire whether states, associations of states, corporations, or cartels - and actors located outside the Republic/Empire. |
Right. 'Functionally sovereign entities' might be the better concept to use, but that gets unwieldy.
| Bren wrote: | | It's not a perfect analogy. The early Roman Republic did not have a large standing army. That was more a evolution of the growth of far-flung colonies and conquered kingdoms in the later Republic. The early Roman military was more of a militia. It was only later under Marius that the truly full-time professional army developed. I like to think, and there is some support for this in the films and the EU, that the Clones are not the only forces of the Republic though the are perhaps the largest or the most active during the Clone Wars. I see this as somewhat like the older Republic, but sharing more of a Confederation of states (and non state actors) more like the UN. |
Given the 25,000-year history of the (Old) Republic, the analogy would never have worked for the young Roman republic. Also, the young republic did not rule the entire region the way the later Roman republic did; it was one among multiple competing powers.
| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | In either case what member state(s) was (were) the hegemonic powers that kept the peace? |
Good question. No idea really. |
I don't think we can really appeal to the SWU-as written and find an answer to this question. I imagine that there was maybe a NATO-like faction in the Senate that could determine what happened. These opposed 'rogue nations'. What would the Star Wars equivalent of Libya be? Moammar the Hutt?
| Bren wrote: | | Without looking it up, I don't think I know the definitional difference between authoritarian and totalitarian government. |
In Political Science a totalitarian government refers to one in which the autocratic state is ruled by (reference to) an ideology. An authoritarian state is the same, but without the ideology.
| Bren wrote: | | I don't think the Empire determines politics on individual worlds. I think Imperial rule on planets and sectors is delegated to the Moffs and Grand Moffs, while COMPNOR attempts to create a humanist, pan-Galactic New Order and new culture. |
| Bren wrote: | | I think of Palpatine as a tyrant in the classical Greek and Roman sense. And I don't think Palpatine cares that much what people think and believe (except for the force users) as much as he cares about controlling their actions. I see Palps as being very concerned with control. Feelings and actions are just additional levers for exerting control. I think COMPNOR actually cares about what people think and believe. Though many of the upper ranks are cynical manipulators hungry for power, I believe many of the mid and lower ranks as well as a few at the top, sincerely believe, or have been effectively conditioned to believe, in the Human Supremacist New Order dogma. |
While Palpatine is obviously the great mover and shaker, his personal motivations do not necessarily determine how the regime should be classified: instead, the means by which he maintains political power in the Galaxy.
COMPNOR and the New Order clearly are ideological components as you identify. The anti-alien policies and ideology of the New Order create an in- and out-group. The Empire, including COMPNOR, does not care about winning the hearts and minds of the aliens. The aliens have to either serve as slaves, get out of the way, and/or (preferably) pay high taxes. The definitional aspect, I suppose, is by what means the Empire wields power over the humans. Do most humans see the Emperor as the man whose policies keep their society safe and prosperous? Or, do they accept his power because they fear him? This distinction is probably more relevant to the more densely populated parts of the galaxy. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | The definitional aspect, I suppose, is by what means the Empire wields power over the humans. Do most humans see the Emperor as the man whose policies keep their society safe and prosperous? Or, do they accept his power because they fear him? This distinction is probably more relevant to the more densely populated parts of the galaxy. |
I think it varies by planet and region. I think the Empire is most concerned with placating and winning the support of the inner core human population. As you move out from the core, they are more willing to subjugate rather than placate. Also, I think the New Order characterizes the 'evil Seperatists' as predominantly a non-human movement (or dupes of the non-human led Jedi Council) and the Supreme Chancellor, the Grand Army of the Republic and its 'valiant Clone troopers' as well as the supporting Fleet as a human movement - reinforcing the us - them mentality. The fact that the Separatists drew their support primarily from the Outer Rim and the Republic from the systems closer to Coruscant and the Core also supports the variable placate - subjugate strategy. That's my view at least. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I think it varies by planet and region. I think the Empire is most concerned with placating and winning the support of the inner core human population. |
At that point, I think that our definition of the Empire as a totalitarian or simply an authoritarian government then hinges on the degree to which the people in the core are (willfully?) unaware of what the Empire is and has done.
To what degree was the destruction of Alderaan and the genocide of Dentaal covered up? Many of the Empire's worst atrocities happened in the Core. In a galaxy of still fairly unrestricted travel, how are these things kept secret? Either the Empire is so effective in its propaganda that it is able to blame the destruction of Alderaan on other forces (blaming it on the Rebels would mean making people believe that the Rebels had that sort of capability), or it doesn't care what people know.
Given that the Emperor's rule is two decades old by the time of the battle of Yavin, I wonder if Palpatine had simply given up on the pretense. His rule may have begun as a totalitarian regime, but as it could no longer maintain the fiction of an ideology that promised something that people could support, he gave it up and ruled as a brutal autocrat. COMPNOR probably just went through the motions like the latter-day Communists in the Soviet Union and the Eastern European countries. This is also the interpretation that Wookieepedia mentions in the following paragraph:
| Wookieepedia: New Order wrote: | | At first, people of the Empire enthusiastically supported the vision outlined in the Declaration of a New Order, largely due to the violence that had plagued the galaxy for so long. Many Senators wholeheartedly supported the new government while a number of more cautious Senators chose to watch and wait to see how the new government would handle the affairs of state. Imperial citizens were encouraged to join COMPNOR. However, the New Order began to lose support as the Empire's authoritarian nature became increasingly public. |
If this is true, and the Core Worlds no longer believe in any of it, we should expect that the political system is thoroughly corrupt. Bribery should become almost an accepted practice; maintenance of the regime becomes increasingly unstable, and the propaganda just doesn't work on anyone anymore. In regard to our other conversation about the Just War Doctrine, the Rebels could actually start to get away with their own atrocities, because nobody would believe Imperial news outlets. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | OBI-WAN: Here, Master. Tatooine... It's small, out of the way, poor... The Trade Federation has no presence there.
CAPT. PANAKA: How can you be sure?
QUI-GON: It's controlled by the Hutts. |
| Quote: | | SHMI: The Republic doesn't exist out here. |
Tatooine was definitely not a part of the Republic in the time of the prequels. And there really isn't any explicit evidence in the films the Empire even officially claims Tatooine as a subject-world. But more in accordance with the EU, I like idea that after ANH the Empire left a nominal presense there, but it is still pretty obvious to the natives that Jabba unofficially rules the planet. I think the only reason that the Empire wouldn't invade and conquer Hutt Space is because Hutt Space (and specifically Jabba) was officially an ally of the Republic in the Clone Wars (while secretly dealing with the Seperatists, completely with the knowledge and consent of Darth Sidious of course).
As far as the Empire in general, it definitely varied per world how much freedom they each had at running their own government. Sometimes it made more sense for the Empire to step back a bit and let the natives run things, and other times is was necessary for the Empire to control things with a tighter grip. Imperial Moffs and Governors were sometimes advisers and overseers, while in other places they might completely replace the native goverment.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | As far as the Empire in general, it definitely varied per world how much freedom they each had at running their own government. Sometimes it made more sense for the Empire to step back a bit and let the natives run things, and other times is was necessary for the Empire to control things with a tighter grip. Imperial Moffs and Governors were sometimes advisers and overseers, while in other places they might completely replace the native goverment. |
So, in many respects, it depends on who the (Grand) Moff is.
Still, there is no question (is there?) that the Emperor is very competent in retaining authority over the Moffs, so that they do not stray beyond his wishes or get any ideas about siphoning off the Empire's resources toward their personal interests. I imagine that he will appoint incompetent/competent/corrupt/zealously loyal Moffs where he thinks they will be the most effective for him.
Does he have a use for incompetent Moffs? Does he have limitations on his power that can be supplemented by appointing popular idiots to certain positions in order to keep this or that faction happy? |
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