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Cryptera
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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 Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: Vibroblade > Lightsaber |
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Hello 
I'm not really an expert concering the star wars universe, so I would really appreciate your opinion and ideas.
I wonder if it makes sense that a Sith or Jedi uses one or two long Vibroblades (with the more common Cortosis, so it can withstand lightsaber blows) instead of a lightsaber?
Can anyone think of reasons why anyone would do this?
1. a vibroblade has more weight -> attacks are stronger, more brute power
2. vibroblades create extreme wounds, a stab with a vibroblade is worse than a stab with a lightsaber
3. its more difficult for other sith/jedit to defend against that weapon, because jedi or sith who wield vibroblades are rare and not common
4. vibroblades are vibrating so fast its hard to see the blade unlike the lightsaber, so its more difficult to defend against them
5. you can poison the blade
Any more ideas? Or things that speaks against it?
Also, a question:
Do you think its possible to deflect blaster shots with cortosis blades? And what about heavy bullets, how can Jedi and Sith deflect them?
thank you and have a nice day |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Vibroblade > Lightsaber |
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| Cryptera wrote: |
1. a vibroblade has more weight -> attacks are stronger, more brute power
2. vibroblades create extreme wounds, a stab with a vibroblade is worse than a stab with a lightsaber
3. its more difficult for other sith/jedit to defend against that weapon, because jedi or sith who wield vibroblades are rare and not common
4. vibroblades are vibrating so fast its hard to see the blade unlike the lightsaber, so its more difficult to defend against them
5. you can poison the blade
Also, a question:
Do you think its possible to deflect blaster shots with cortosis blades? And what about heavy bullets, how can Jedi and Sith deflect them?
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1. If you're talking about realistically wielding such a weapon and being able to power through defenses, that might be. Though having worked with a number of historical weapons I can tell you that there are a number of variables concerning powering through someone's guard, and weight is certainly one factor, but only a small factor. Leverage makes more difference than anything. A single-handed vibroblade would almost certainly not be able to power through a Jedi using a wide grip with two hands on a lightsaber. It just isn't probable. So, weight is a factor, but only one factor among many.
But, when it comes to the rules, well... they just don't make many provisions for such details. D6 has a number of strengths in making for a fast and cinematic gameplay, but has nothing to offer when trying to tweak such subtle nuances of fighting. It's all attack roll vs. defense roll.
2. In terms of raw damage I'm not sure it helps to use a vibroblade IF the Sith can get lightsaber combat (LSC) up. Once you have that particular Force Power working, the damage just skyrockets as the Sith continues his character development. True, you can get more max damage at first, but the lightsaber will catch up and by far outstrip the vibro-weapon. That is, of course, assuming you are using the rules as written (RAW).
3. Again, having worked with a number of historical weapons I can tell you from experience (both being on the aggressive and defensive ends) that your opponent faces an enormous challenge if s/he is not familiar with the weapon you are wielding IF you are familiar with their weapon. That is to say, if I've got a katana, and you've got a rapier, and neither of us have seen the other person's weapon before, we're both going to have a REALLY hard time trying to make heads or tails of the other person's style. If I've worked with and fought against rapiers before, but you've never seen a katana, then it's probably bad luck for you. The converse is true. If I've never seen a rapier, but you know what it's like working with and against a katana, then I'm likely to make a very critical error early in the confrontation.
No rules exist for this, but that's easy enough to house rule.
4. I'm not sure why a vibroblade is hard to see as opposed to any other melee weapon. I see vibroblades similar to electric carving knives. They move rapidly, but in a steady direction up and down, making the cuts more effective, though I'm not sure that they're quite that "all over the place" as not to be seen well. It may be that is the case, though I've never envisioned it to be so.
Though visibility of a weapon has more to do with environment anyway. If it's dark and you have a mask/helmet on, then yeah, it's hard to parry incoming blades. If you've got the sun in your face, then it's harder to see incoming blades.
Though you're certainly right in suggesting that lightsabers are really not stealth weapons, though. They hum, they glow, and it's not exactly like you're going to have a good sneak attack with them.
5. Ouch. That's nasty. Do it. Though against someone who as the Detoxify Poison power, it may not be effective except to get them to burn dice on Multiple Action Penalties (MAPs).
Blaster shots and bullets: If you had the LSC power up and house ruled it so that you could use your vibroblade for that, then sure... you could get it in the way of the shot. It might even save your butt... however... how many shots could this thing take? I don't think that your vibroweapon would last long. Even normal bullets are going to really wreck your weapon, and then they would alter the trajectory of the bullet... maybe enough to save you... maybe not. Swords in our world just don't stand up to that sort of punishment. Heck, they get chipped an notched like something crazy when they're used edge to edge against each other. Steel only works so well in preventing some kinds of damage, and bullets ended the use of heavy armor in Medieval combat.
It's true that they're probably using some material other than steel, but to resist such high velocity slugs, then there are going to be issues. Anything that is supple enough not to break is likely to warp and dent. Anything rigid enough is likely to be too brittle.
In the real world I'd be highly skeptical. But since this is sci-fi, then there's probably enough GM handwavium you could use to justify it by saying that it is a rare metal alloyed with cortosis (which is supposed to be very brittle in its pure form anyway).
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Cryptera
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, thank you a lot for your really detailed answer! I really appreciate it!!!
I have to go now but I can read everything in peace when I'm home this evening.
I do not ask from a "pen & paper" perspective only but also in a just fantasy scenario kind of logic, for writing stories and characters. I hope you understand what I mean, my english is a little bit weird. Thats why answers like this are really helpful to me!
If anyone has opinions on this matter (advantages, disadvantages, why or why not a Sith could use these blades as a main weapon) I would like to read it! |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Vibroblade > Lightsaber |
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[quote="cheshire"]1. While heavier a vibroblade seems a lot more fragile than a lightsaber blade. Anything that misaligns the vibrating elements will either cause shutdown or catastrophic failure - which will depend on whether the engineers that design vibroblades go to the same school as the architects who design shafts without railings. 
2. RAW LSC will outstrip vibroblade damage especially since vibroblades like other melee weapons have a max damage limit. From a fluff perspective one could argue that clean surgically straight wounds from a vibroblade are easier to first aid the the combination cut, burnt, cauterized, and demolecularized damage from lightsaber. Probably much harder to first aid the lightsaber damage.
3. Since vibroblades are in general use throughout the galaxy, I don't see any reason that they would be more unfamiliar than simple melee weapons. But as cheshire said, you could always house rule it.
4. I agree with cheshire. While it would be difficult to see the edge (which is vibrating ultra fast) the majority of the blade is not vibrating at all. The edge probably does look blurry. It's also good to note that most vibroblades (except for special ultrasonic versions) make an audible hum or whine. (Personally I favor a teeth jarring whine rather than a hum so the vibroblade sounds different than a lightsaber. I treat the sound like a cross between a loud gnat and a tiny dental drill.)
Most vibroblades are noisy. Which makes sense for safety for most applications. Also for weapons it is a safety factor for the user and an intimidation factor for the opponent. There are special vibroblades that have an ultrasonic pitch above human hearing - see the LaserHone Talon Vibrodagger in Gundark’s Fantastic Technology (pages 13-14),
Pirates & Privateers (page 42), Rules of Engagement – The Rebel SpecForce Handbook (page 60) or that turn on automatically when drawn (so the user can keep it sheathed and quiet but when needed doesn't need an extra action to turn the thing on).
5. If the blade is vibrating ultrafast, would poison actually stay on the blade or be vibrated off - effectively cleaning it via sonication? You might want a villain with a custom vibrablade with a hollow tube through the handle to dispense poison at the push of a button - I would assume it would stay on for a short peroid of time. Or have it automatically emit poison on hitting a target.
I'd probably let lightsabers deflect (or just vaporize) bullets. I prefer blasters to bullets in Star Wars so I don't really want to make bullets any more useful.
I think a vibroblade would be more fragile than a simple (non-powered) blade. In the right hands one could allow deflection though there is probably a chance for ricochets and damage to the vibroblade. Also, isn't cortosis less durable than non-cortosis metals/materials? I seem to recall seeing something about a trade off between the anti-lightsaber effect of cortosis vs. the greater physical/energy protection of non-cortosis materials.
At the end of the day, I would look at parrying bullets with a vibroblade as the equivalent of the anime action of parrying bullets with a normal katana. It doesn't make real world sense but if you think it is cool lay on the handwavium and allow it. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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On the blaster/bullet vs LS.. there are at least 2 benefits for using bullets.. EX tip (the ones with the little bit of detonite in them) will still explode on the LS when it contacts, and you do not need to worry about the sith you shoot at (or jedi) reflecting it back at you.!!!
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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1) There is more brute power, yes, but, a lightsaber blade does not cause damage by powering through a material, rather, contacting the energy arc disrupts the very molecules (and their bonds) of the material, super-heating it and in many cases, simply vaporizing it. This means that even a light touch will cause a lot of damage.
It really is a lot like a super hot knife through butter 
Vibroblades are still a conventional weapon, despite having a little motor in the hilt. They depend on ripping through material and bashing... which does require brute force and some weight... but to say that it makes for a stronger attack, well, it depends on the nature of the attack, I suppose. It certainly would add to the "knock back/down" factor.
Add in the leverage ideas cheshire mentioned and it's not a simple story.
2) Yeah, perhaps. A vibroblade wound definitely bleeds more and causes more blunt trauma as well, but... think about a simple slash with either weapon; a lightsaber, as described above and rapidly and easily create a long swath of destruction, while a vibroweapon will be resisted by the material it's passing through, limiting the amount of tissue damaged.
Even though a straight stab might cause less damage, it's also possible that, while the wound is instantly cauterized, the tissue that is lost is completely gone... you can't stitch it back together, it won't grow back... it's gone. Hit something small and important and you're a goner. With a vibroblade, the wound might still heal.
3) This would likely be simply false. The basics of the attacks and defenses are pretty similar, so the Jedi/Sith could anticipate how an attack might be coming. Add in the fact that a parry with a lightsaber would destroy the vibroblade, and pretty soon you have a Jedi/Sith vs an unarmed opponent
4) As I read the description, no part of a vibroblade is actually moving. Rather, it's akin to having the vibrating unit of a cell phone in the hilt, but vibrating at a much higher frequency (likely approaching utlrasonic), sending vibrations through the material of the blade (result is the edge is shifting micrometers per second, making cutting easier). With this in mind, it would have 0 impact on visibility, the degree of vibration wouldn't even be visible to most species.
A vibroblade, when active, looks like it does when it's off... just it hums slightly.
5) true.
Re: no, you can't deflect blaster shots with a cortosis blade... well, maybe you could, with (as cheshire mentioned) LSC active, but you couldn't direct it... and it would likely take damage. You might not be able to do it often.
Regarding bullets, I think it would be unwise. As I recall, cortosis is quite brittle; the impact of a bullet would likely destroy the blade, shattering it. So, yeah, you could block ONE
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | On the blaster/bullet vs LS.. there are at least 2 benefits for using bullets.. EX tip (the ones with the little bit of detonite in them) will still explode on the LS when it contacts, and you do not need to worry about the sith you shoot at (or jedi) reflecting it back at you.!!! |
Two words: cortosis bullets.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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One word.. BRITTLE.. the bullet would shatter, before it ever reached a target imo.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Where is your imagination, garhkal? Imagine what happens if a Jedi parties a cortosis bullet with his Lightsaber?
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cheshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: |
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If you're at point blank then fragments of the bullet would still reach the lightsaber. But then you're at point blank with a Jedi, and nobody really wants that.
But if you had something similar to a hollow point, instead of it being hollow you had a lead casing around pure cortosis, the bullet would survive until the metal was evaporated on contact with the lightsaber, then the lightsaber gets deactivated on contact with the cortosis.
If you get the second round off quick it might actually hit the Jedi before s/he could reactivate the lightsaber.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Now that i can see.
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Volar the Healer
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Where is your imagination, garhkal? Imagine what happens if a Jedi parties a cortosis bullet with his Lightsaber? |
Since the bullet resists the effect of the lightsaber, it won't immediately melt. Thus it will be easier to deflect as a single piece.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Volar the Healer wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Where is your imagination, garhkal? Imagine what happens if a Jedi parties a cortosis bullet with his Lightsaber? |
Since the bullet resists the effect of the lightsaber, it won't immediately melt. Thus it will be easier to deflect as a single piece. |
If it's solid cortosis, it'll short out the blade without stopping.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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I;m still saying/feeling that its too brittle to even get made into bullets/shot out of a gun.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I;m still saying/feeling that its too brittle to even get made into bullets/shot out of a gun. |
Even if it were in a raw powdered form, you could build a thin aluminum capsule for it to carry it as far as the saber, and it wouldn't spread too much by the time it hit the Jedi. The strength of the round doesn't matter as much as the mass. That's why bullets are made of soft, heavy lead, and why shotguns can kill people.
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