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garhkal
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 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: Cloning Jedi |
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Ok, we know in Timothy Zahn's trilogy, he had 2 jedi cloned, who kept their force powers.. Joruus Cyboth and Luuke Skywalker.
So should a Jedi that gets cloned keep their force powers? Would it be lessened?
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Cloning Jedi |
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| garhkal wrote: | Ok, we know in Timothy Zahn's trilogy, he had 2 jedi cloned, who kept their force powers.. Joruus Cyboth and Luuke Skywalker.
So should a Jedi that gets cloned keep their force powers? Would it be lessened? |
I like the idea that the shadow or copy is weaker (or more unstable) than the original. We seem to see this with the Clone Troopers. They don't have the skill and experience of a Jango Fett. I can't remember if that was clearly the case with Joruus or Luuke.
In our house campaign, my GM had a Dark Jedi who cloned himself. My Jedi freed/rescued the clone. I'm not sure if the clone had the strength of the original. He definitely did not have the training and experience of the original and so was quite a bit weaker than his progenitor and was eventually killed by the original. This reminds me of a question I will post as a separate thread. |
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BSDOblivion
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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in the zahn books the knowledge was done with "flash memory" basicly downloaded to the brain in a sense. its also one of the very few areas when zahn didnt explain a little more aS he should have since the flash memory was supposed to be recorded from the base line, or template, like the rest of his army.
the entire army learned with the "flash memory" so it should have been the same tech that taught the luuke. unfortunatly it was a shadowed over area of the story that should have been explained.
for me i only allowed the clone to know the force skills if it was trained or done with the flash memory. but even untrained they are still force sensative
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: |
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So flash training would 'push' force powers? Or just the knowledge of them?
Would cloning port over the midiclorian count?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: |
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I've always figured that a clone was a duplicate of attributes only, as attributes are the closest representation available of a character's raw genetic ability. That being said, in WEG's binary Force Sensitivity system, if the base sample is Force Sensitive, then the clones are probably FS as well.
I would think that flash training would only be capable of "pushing" Force knowledge or other advanced skills if they had the base sample available to do a full "download", as it were. For clones like Luuke or Joruus, since neither base template was available to do a full download, flash teaching was probably enough to teach them basic skills. An alternate possibility would be if the Emperor flash printed a clone with someone else's Knowledge of the Force. Of course, cross-printing like that could be one of the reasons they went insane...
Based on the way Zahn wrote it, I think Force skills have to be imprintable by flash training. If you look at Luuke's lifespan, he spent all but the last few minutes of his life under the cover of the Mt. Tantiss ysalamiri bubble. Even once C'baoth arrived to take charge of him in person, there was no opportunity for him to truly experience the Force until the moment C'baoth destroyed the ysalamiri and began the battle with Luke and Mara. C'baoth could've been remote controlling him, but that is a lot of divided attention, even for someone as powerful as he was.
Speaking of his power, getting his Force abilities flash trained from another source might explain his power level, if he was flash trained from the Emperor...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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That would be interesting.. flash training cyboths clone..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That would be interesting.. flash training cyboths clone.. |
Kinda reminds me of the Arnold movie, the 6th Day (or something) with clones being flash-printed with the memories of the original.
I wonder if flash teaching could be used on non-clones. Maybe it gives you instant knowledge of certain subjects without the training time, but that it drives you insane (or at least increases your chances of being insane).
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'd assume that flash printing memories on someone who already has memories would cause some form of conflict like overwriting existing memories or changing personality traits.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | I'd assume that flash printing memories on someone who already has memories would cause some form of conflict like overwriting existing memories or changing personality traits. |
Exactly. I was also thinking that there could be "cross-contamination" of sorts by associated random memories that are linked to the flash-printed information. A person who has been flash-printed with knowledge could start having random memories or dreams that aren't his own, or reacting to certain stimuli in uncharacteristic fashion.
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Anakin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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I love Zahns explanation of the problems with cloning force sensitives.
This thing with the memory being cloned as well is interesting though. I normally (as normal as it gets - in my SW universe clones are rare) divide the cloning into different grades. Advanced cloning also clones the memory, while basic cloning only clones "hard ware". Basic cloning might be combined with psychologic programming, where "borrowed" memories can be installed to form a desired personality, like in Blade runner.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Anakin wrote: | | I love Zahns explanation of the problems with cloning force sensitives. |
Are you talking about how the Force causes the resonance / feedback / whatever that negatively affects a clone's sanity? I'm pretty sure that was a problem with clones in general, and I can't remember an additional problem being mentioned for FS clones above and beyond that.
| Quote: | | This thing with the memory being cloned as well is interesting though. I normally (as normal as it gets - in my SW universe clones are rare) divide the cloning into different grades. Advanced cloning also clones the memory, while basic cloning only clones "hard ware". Basic cloning might be combined with psychologic programming, where "borrowed" memories can be installed to form a desired personality, like in Blade runner. |
I would think that would be a factor of what you wanted said clones used for. If you are looking for clones to do manual labor, you could probably select a template with a high Strength and low everything else, then give them basic programming (enough so that they can tell right from left, how to tie their shoes and to follow basic instructions). Advanced cloning would be reserved for elites, like ARC troopers or deliberate attempts to clone a Force sensitive, and there could be intermediate grades in between, all based on specifics needs (or, in the case of the Kaminoans, how much the client is willing to pay per unit).
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Anakin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
Are you talking about how the Force causes the resonance / feedback / whatever that negatively affects a clone's sanity? I'm pretty sure that was a problem with clones in general, and I can't remember an additional problem being mentioned for FS clones above and beyond that.
I would think that would be a factor of what you wanted said clones used for. If you are looking for clones to do manual labor, you could probably select a template with a high Strength and low everything else, then give them basic programming (enough so that they can tell right from left, how to tie their shoes and to follow basic instructions). Advanced cloning would be reserved for elites, like ARC troopers or deliberate attempts to clone a Force sensitive, and there could be intermediate grades in between, all based on specifics needs (or, in the case of the Kaminoans, how much the client is willing to pay per unit). |
I might have gotten it wrong, but when I read the books I got the impression that it was extra difficult with the force sensitive. I use that version anyway 
Yeah, that's the way I see the advanced and the basic cloning. That and some extra genetic engineering is my explanation on the royal guards 5D Dex (separate thread).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Anakin wrote: | | I might have gotten it wrong, but when I read the books I got the impression that it was extra difficult with the force sensitive. I use that version anyway |
I was under the impression that, due to their experience with C'baoth, they wanted to clone him but take additional steps to minimize the mental hazards of the cloning process, so that they could have a C'baoth who was both sane and loyal. Your version works just fine, however, and considering the issues Zahn raised with the Force resonance affecting accelerated cloning, a Force sensitive clone would be doubly sensitive to it.
There is also the possibility that a person who is FS from birth learns natural coping techniques to deal with the insight they get from the Force, and that a Force sensitive clone grown at an accelerated rate wouldn't have the experience to develop those coping mechanisms (unless they were a full flash-imprinted personality copy). On top of that is the possibility that growing a clone under the influence of a ysalamiri field would cause the FS clone to suffer a psychotic episode when they finally get out from under the ysalamiri's influence and the Force comes flooding back over their senses.
| Quote: | | Yeah, that's the way I see the advanced and the basic cloning. That and some extra genetic engineering is my explanation on the royal guards 5D Dex (separate thread). |
I think so too. It seems a logical next step that experienced cloners would be able to tweak the genetic code to enhance specific attributes.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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While I'm not 100% on board with the idea that the Royal Guard are created via genetic engineering I suppose you only have to get it right once and then you have the superior template you can create everyone else from that.
It means there might be a few failed templates out there that a symathetic or curious scientist allowed to grow to adulthood.
I still prefer the idea that the Royal Guard just represent the 0.000000001% of the galactic population that can be pushed beyond the normal limits of a human being combined with an often deadly level of training.
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Hellcat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it would lessen the Force skills of the Jedi that get's cloned in the least. Technically the clone, unless given some kind flash learning that put's them on par with who their cloned from, should have absolutely no clue how to use the Force. The process should be be more likely to make another Force-sensitive who can then be trained.
It could actually make an interesting story line for an adventure. Have the main antagonist as a dark sider whose been cloning themselves and training each clone so the clones are at different levels. The PCs don't know their facing clones so they get to kill the guy and think they've done a great thing only to have them come back more powerful in the next episode and the PCs are made to think they didn't actually kill them, they just incapacitated or mortally wounded them in their last encounter.
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