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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:34 am Post subject: What are Dark Side Points? |
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I know what they are according to the RAW, but where I'm drawing a blank is, how would DSPs translate in real life?
We all know that Star Wars is a battle between good and evil, and that heroes (especially Force sensitive ones) face a constant struggle between the Light and Dark within themselves, but how do you roleplay a character who used to have zero DSPs and now have one or more? What is their emotional state? How do they behave differently? Do they feel guilty? Conflicted? It's a fact of life that morality is a relative concept for some people (i.e. some people hold themselves to higher standards than others), so why does the RAW have DSPs have a relatively uniform effect?
I'd like to expand upon the idea of DSPs in the RAW, but I'd appreciate the list's input with regards to translating a DSP # into a tangible effect in a roleplaying scenario.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:57 am Post subject: |
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I have seen some argue that DSPs are a marker of how evil you are. The more you get, the more likely your actions will be tindged by that evil. BUT there has been no official stance other than tracking whether you turn to the darkside or not.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: Re: What are Dark Side Points? |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I know what they are according to the RAW, but where I'm drawing a blank is, how would DSPs translate in real life? |
Not very well I think.
| Quote: | | ...how do you roleplay a character who used to have zero DSPs and now have one or more? What is their emotional state? How do they behave differently? Do they feel guilty? Conflicted? |
Depends on how they got the DSP. If due to rage/anger that will play out differently than if it is due to fear/apathy.
Typically I would expect rage driven DSPs to show up as an edgier more dangerous personna - think Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry or possibly as a bad boy/girl image - think early Spike on Buffy. DSPs from apathy I would see as a Hamlet-like melancholy or depressive personality and an inability to take action.
When my Jedi got a DSP (for killing an enemy in anger) his personality was noticably different. He got angry easily, his temper was not well controlled and he tended to lash out verbally or even erupt in violence. He was more likely to use Intimidation rather than Persuade to influence those around him. All this echoed the actions taken that earned the DSP. He felt guilty about the fact that he had killed someone and liked the momentary feeling of power. He felt unworthy to be a Jedi and uncertain about his role in life and felt he was a danger to those closest to him. Eventually he left them so that he could a) protect them, b) mope and brood in private, and c) eventually sort things out.
| Quote: | | ...why does the RAW have DSPs have a relatively uniform effect? |
Because the only game effect that is out of the player's control is the loss of the character if the DSP roll is failed. Players should be roleplaying some effect of the DSP.
| Quote: | | I'd like to expand upon the idea of DSPs in the RAW, but I'd appreciate the list's input with regards to translating a DSP # into a tangible effect in a roleplaying scenario. |
Just so there is not confusion, are you looking at what you do with your character or something the GM does to the player's character? |
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Xain Arke
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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personally I think DSPs are meant to be a measure of how evil a character is becoming, a character in Star Wars doesn't just suddenly fall to the Dark Side, it's the actions they choose that causes their fall, and each failure makes the next one easier. Anakin Skywalkers is a good example of this in the prequel movies.
Game wise, I use the optional rules on page 144 of the Tales of the Jedi Companion, each time a character gets a DSP he gains a negative peronality trait from a list to reflect the growing influence of the Dark Side upon his actions. In my own campaign a character never loses these traits even if they atone for the DSP, but this is just a home rule, the actual rules don't mention if you lose them or not with atonement.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Xain Arke wrote: | Game wise, I use the optional rules on page 144 of the Tales of the Jedi Companion, each time a character gets a DSP he gains a negative peronality trait from a list to reflect the growing influence of the Dark Side upon his actions. In my own campaign a character never loses these traits even if they atone for the DSP, but this is just a home rule, the actual rules don't mention if you lose them or not with atonement.
Xain |
What process do you use to select the trait? In other words, do you roll randomly on a table, have the player select a trait, have the GM selects a trait, etc?
It makes sense that the trait wouldn't totally go away. It should be part of the PCs persona. Though it should probably be under the PCs control after atoning. I would expect another DSP would cause it to remanifest or re-express. To use an example from a different show - in Babylon 5 Michael Garibaldi is an alcoholic. One could think of this as a trait that is a result of a past DSP (the war, breakup of his first marriage, whatever) This manifests (under stress) a couple of times in the five-year arc of the series. It never goes away. It is always part of Garibaldi's personality. |
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Xain Arke
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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In the official rules its a random roll that determines the trait, I don't think that's a good option. I feel the personality trait should suit the transgression that gained the character the DSP, often it means deviating from the official list and coming up with a more suitable ones, but that's part of GMing isn't it 
| Quote: | | It makes sense that the trait wouldn't totally go away. It should be part of the PCs persona. Though it should probably be under the PCs control after atoning. I would expect another DSP would cause it to remanifest or re-express. To use an example from a different show - in Babylon 5 Michael Garibaldi is an alcoholic. One could think of this as a trait that is a result of a past DSP (the war, breakup of his first marriage, whatever) This manifests (under stress) a couple of times in the five-year arc of the series. It never goes away. It is always part of Garibaldi's personality. |
This is pretty much how I see it, Yodas words about the Dark Side forever controlling someones destiny once they have been tainted by it were my guide for leaving the characters burdened with the trait even after atonement.
On a related note to all this, I also use what we call transgression points, these were based on an article I read on another site whose name escapes me. A Player in my campaign gets a transgression point if he performs a morally dubious action but one that doesn't merit an instant DSP, transgression points linger across game sessions and upon getting a third the player gets an instant DSP and his trangression points drop back to zero. Its kind of a warning mechanism for the players as I refuse to provide any GM guidance on whether player actions will get them a DSP or not, all my players are long in the tooth as gamers, so it's up to them to judge.
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Rerun941
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I've always thought Dark Side Points represented corruption.
Corruption of the mind, the body and the soul. It's a sludge coating the person that distorts their perceptions and warps them. Hence, it must be cleansed.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Xain Arke wrote: | | I feel the personality trait should suit the transgression that gained the character the DSP, often it means deviating from the official list and coming up with a more suitable ones, but that's part of GMing isn't it |
Part of both GM and player roles. Both should want any trait to match and mesh with the PCs personality, background, and in-game experiences.
| Quote: | | On a related note to all this, I also use what we call transgression points, these were based on an article I read on another site whose name escapes me. A Player in my campaign gets a transgression point if he performs a morally dubious action but one that doesn't merit an instant DSP, transgression points linger across game sessions and upon getting a third the player gets an instant DSP and his trangression points drop back to zero. Its kind of a warning mechanism for the players as I refuse to provide any GM guidance on whether player actions will get them a DSP or not, all my players are long in the tooth as gamers, so it's up to them to judge. |
If you haven't already, you should take a look at what ZzaphodD does with Dark Side pips. It sounds similar to "transgression points." I don't know where Z clearly lays out his system, but this thread talks about it in some detail. http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3344&start=0
FYI: Random Numbers is a player running a Jedi in ZzaphodD's campaign. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Xain Arke wrote: | personally I think DSPs are meant to be a measure of how evil a character is becoming, a character in Star Wars doesn't just suddenly fall to the Dark Side, it's the actions they choose that causes their fall, and each failure makes the next one easier. Anakin Skywalkers is a good example of this in the prequel movies.
Game wise, I use the optional rules on page 144 of the Tales of the Jedi Companion, each time a character gets a DSP he gains a negative peronality trait from a list to reflect the growing influence of the Dark Side upon his actions. In my own campaign a character never loses these traits even if they atone for the DSP, but this is just a home rule, the actual rules don't mention if you lose them or not with atonement.
Xain |
That might be something i can introduce to the Sparks council.. see whether there is any interest.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: What are Dark Side Points? |
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EDIT: Quotes are now appropriately attributed. Man, hit Submit instead of Preview just one time...
| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I know what they are according to the RAW, but where I'm drawing a blank is, how would DSPs translate in real life? |
Not very well I think. |
That is an issue for me. While I don't think a D&D type alignment system would be a good match for the RAW, there should be some sort of guidelines for how characters react differently. A big part of the plot is the major character's struggles between the good and evil within themselves, yet WEG essentially bypasses it with a token concept of DSPs, without giving any real guidelines as to how to roleplay someone with DSPs. I like the Optional Rule from Tales of the Jedi, but i do think it needs to be fleshed out somewhat.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | ...how do you roleplay a character who used to have zero DSPs and now have one or more? What is their emotional state? How do they behave differently? Do they feel guilty? Conflicted? |
Depends on how they got the DSP. If due to rage/anger that will play out differently than if it is due to fear/apathy.
Typically I would expect rage driven DSPs to show up as an edgier more dangerous personna - think Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry or possibly as a bad boy/girl image - think early Spike on Buffy. DSPs from apathy I would see as a Hamlet-like melancholy or depressive personality and an inability to take action. |
Excellent suggestions. Can you think of any other scenarios that might cause a character to get a DSP? I would think fear and apathy would actually be separate, in the sense that apathy is a lack of caring, while fear would be someone that does care, but in the end was too afraid to act.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | ...why does the RAW have DSPs have a relatively uniform effect? |
Because the only game effect that is out of the player's control is the loss of the character if the DSP roll is failed. Players should be roleplaying some effect of the DSP. |
I agree, but what I was trying to ask about was why is the earning of DSPs a uniform thing when morality for some people is a relative concept. A jaded bounty hunter may not even think twice about leaving people to certain death; after all, we all have to die some time, and its not like he could've saved them all. On the other hand, an idealist like a Young Senatorial or a Minor Jedi will feel driven to save everyone that they can, and will likely feel some degree of shame if they can't save everyone.
As Rerun said, DSPs are an indicator of corruption, but does that also mean that they represent a loss of innocence? We all begin as relative innocents, but life experience slowly strips that away from us, bit by bit, some more than others and not always through our own actions.
| Quote: | | Just so there is not confusion, are you looking at what you do with your character or something the GM does to the player's character? |
Right now, this is simply a discussion with the end goal of providing players and GMs with some guidelines for how to roleplay characters with DSPs. It may tie into my Willpower/DSP concept later, but for now it is a stand-alone.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:53 am Post subject: Re: What are Dark Side Points? |
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CR, it looks like your quotes are intermingled. To clarify, the following is not my quote nor my POV (I added the NOT inside the quote name):
| crmcneill wrote: | | NOT Bren wrote: | | That is an issue for me. While I don't think a D&D type alignment system would be a good match for the RAW, there should be some sort of guidelines for how characters react differently. A big part of the plot is the major character's struggles between the good and evil within themselves, yet WEG essentially bypasses it with a token concept of DSPs, without giving any real guidelines as to how to roleplay someone with DSPs. I like the Optional Rule from Tales of the Jedi, but i do think it needs to be fleshed out somewhat. |
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| Quote: | | Excellent suggestions. Can you think of any other scenarios that might cause a character to get a DSP? I would think fear and apathy would actually be separate, in the sense that apathy is a lack of caring, while fear would be someone that does care, but in the end was too afraid to act. |
So we have rage and apathy. I can probably think of some more. Any strong emotion can cause difficulty for a Jedi, but I tend to think that only negative emotions will result in a DSP. So love won't give you a DSP, but love combined with fear might cause one to act in anger which could give a DSP.
Taking a quick look at the seven deadly sins: wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.
Wrath: covered above under anger/rage.
Greed/Envy: I'd combine greed and envy thinking this might manifest as a miserly, stingy, or hoarding type of attitude. Maybe a cross between a treasure hoarding dragon and Scrooge.
Sloth: I'd use this as the apathy portion of fear/apathy covered above. The reason I combined fear and apathy is because fear could lead to ignoring or failing to help others, but it could also lead to anger and a wrathful response. Anakin's fear tends to lead him to anger. But a more melancholic character could fail to take any action rather than reacting with anger.
Pride: This seems an easy character aspect for villains and heroes alike as they increase in skill. I suspect Sith almost always have this trait and I can easily see an experienced, high power Jedi succumbing to this. We see this in Anakin's concern with being on the concil and being lauded and recognized for his great power.
Lust/Gluttony : manifests as a preoccupation with experiencing sex, food, drink, and other luxuries. I don't find this one very interesting or compelling for Star Wars and this seems more like something that will affect an NPC than a PC. Might also be seen as too strong a tie or concern with the physical and material rather than the immaterial and the force itself.
One reason I combine some "sins" is because it is easier to assess what a character does rather than exactly why he really took the action. Sometimes the character may not really know his real underlying reason. Sometimes the player may also be confused about this.  When deciding how the DSP manifests as a personality trait or change, I like looking predominantly at what the character did. As a practical matter it defuses arguments with the players since they may argue about why they did something, but it is a lot harder to argue about what they did.
| Quote: | | ...but what I was trying to ask about was why is the earning of DSPs a uniform thing when morality for some people is a relative concept. A jaded bounty hunter may not even think twice about leaving people to certain death; after all, we all have to die some time, and its not like he could've saved them all. On the other hand, an idealist like a Young Senatorial or a Minor Jedi will feel driven to save everyone that they can, and will likely feel some degree of shame if they can't save everyone. |
It's only uniform for Force Sensitives. Others don't get DSPs as easily.
But I see the character's attitude about loss and death as different than DSPs and a character could lose innocence without accumulating a DSP. Think about the first time a character kills another even if perfectly justified and without gaining a DSP. This should cause some loss of innocence. That's how I play my characters and I would expect others to play that out in some way based on the PCs personality. And while the accumulation of DSPs is a loss of innocence, different characters are going to experience that differently based on how the DSP was earned and on the personality of the PC and, let's face it, on the willingness, interest, and ability of the player to roleplay the experience.
| Quote: | | Right now, this is simply a discussion with the end goal of providing players and GMs with some guidelines for how to roleplay characters with DSPs. It may tie into my Willpower/DSP concept later, but for now it is a stand-alone. |
OK. I don't think guidelines are necessary, but I think this is something I expect mature, experienced players to understand and want to do. Other less experienced or less mature players may need some discussion (which is a give and take) about the topic of how their character might reasonably react. Some players may not be interested even after a discussion.  Without some interest in playing out the moral choices and reactions that are part of the space opera genre, they won't be very interesting (to me) as Star Wars players. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | I've always thought Dark Side Points represented corruption. |
That is what it seems like tome. I don't see DSPs as making someone Evil per sey, just that the character is becoming more selfish, which in turn makes it easier for him to turn to evil.
From what we see in the films, and from how things play in the RPG, we don't really see characters becoming more evil. Even Anakin's turn to evil happened after being "comsumed" by the dark side.
In the RPG characters who get DSPs usually have ood intentions and goals, but they are willing to take a shortcut to get their way (the quick & easy path). |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've always felt that Dark Side Points acted as lodestones on a person's moral compas so the more Dark Side Points they get the more likely they are to employ questionable methods .
I hadn't thought about it in any great depth before but I do like the ideas proposed that Dark Side Points add or amplify negative traits to the character but I really like that idea.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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That was my thought, too. I always figured that a person with DSPs who hasn't turned to the Dark Side would be heavily conflicted, like Anakin was in the prequels, as a result of having made choices that he knows are wrong. In the end, his choices are redemption or surrender, but until he makes those choices, there should be some sort of noticeable effect on said character's psyche.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: Re: What are Dark Side Points? |
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| Bren wrote: | | CR, it looks like your quotes are intermingled. To clarify, the following is not my quote nor my POV (I added the NOT inside the quote name): |
Good catch. All fixed now.
| Quote: | | One reason I combine some "sins" is because it is easier to assess what a character does rather than exactly why he really took the action. Sometimes the character may not really know his real underlying reason. Sometimes the player may also be confused about this. When deciding how the DSP manifests as a personality trait or change, I like looking predominantly at what the character did. As a practical matter it defuses arguments with the players since they may argue about why they did something, but it is a lot harder to argue about what they did. |
On a related note, here is the list of traits from the Tales Of The Jedi Sourcebook:
Roll 4D:
4 Arrogant
5 Compulsive
6 Contempt for Non-Jedi
7 Deceitful
8 Depressed
9 Disagreeable
10 Disenchanted with the Jedi Way
11 Disloyal
12-13 Egotistical
14 Hateful
15 Hopeless
16 Impatient
17 Miserly
18 Obsessive
19 Paranoia
20 Phobia
21 Power-Hungry
22 Quick to anger
23 Selfish
24 Suspicious
These are all some great suggestions, but with rolling 4D, you end up with a lot of possibles that may not match the scenario in which the Jedi gained his DSP. What I'd like to see is four or five separate lists, one for each of the general emotional scenarios in which a character might gain a DSP, so that the end result will be a bit more appropriate.
| Quote: | | It's only uniform for Force Sensitives. Others don't get DSPs as easily. |
According to the RAW, at least. Things aren't normally so simple and clear-cut. I still think that there should be more variation in a person's "degree of morality" than whether or not they happen to be Force sensitive. I'm just not quite sure exactly what form that differentiation should take. Right now I'm thinking that it would combine with either my Willpower vs. DSP concept or with ZzaphodD's Will of the Dark Side rule, in that characters who are more "innocent" are held to a higher standard, but are more resistant to the Dark Side's call.
| Quote: | | But I see the character's attitude about loss and death as different than DSPs and a character could lose innocence without accumulating a DSP. Think about the first time a character kills another even if perfectly justified and without gaining a DSP. This should cause some loss of innocence. That's how I play my characters and I would expect others to play that out in some way based on the PCs personality. And while the accumulation of DSPs is a loss of innocence, different characters are going to experience that differently based on how the DSP was earned and on the personality of the PC and, let's face it, on the willingness, interest, and ability of the player to roleplay the experience. |
I agree, up to a point. What I'm thinking is that that loss of innocence has the potential to make a person more vulnerable to the influence of the Dark Side, even if they never give in to it. This, I think, would ultimately tie in to my Willpower vs. DSP concept, so for now its just theoretical, but I do think that a person who has experienced trauma or tragedy in their lives, like (for example) a combat veteran with PTSD, is more vulnerable to that aspect of themselves than someone who has never experienced the horrors of war.
I have seen this in real life. My father was in the USMC and was a Vietnam veteran who was drastically affected by his experience there. One of the things that I never found out about until after he died was that they would go on jeep patrols and little kids would try to run up to the jeeps. Unfortunately, the VC would put explosives on some of the children and detonate the explosives when they got next to the jeeps, so the Marines had standing orders to machinegun these little kids if they got too close. My father went over to Vietnam as a relative innocent and came back a scarred monster, who did some pretty awful things when he got back. Along the way, he got help and found his way back to the person that he used to be, but he never, ever talked to anyone in the family about what he had seen or done. We only found out after he died, from people who knew him back then.
That's what I'm reaching towards here; the fact that otherwise normal people who are forced into horrific situation can become scarred and tainted by darkness as a result of things that were no their choice, even the possibility of being tainted by association, via survivor's guilt.
| Quote: | | OK. I don't think guidelines are necessary, but I think this is something I expect mature, experienced players to understand and want to do. Other less experienced or less mature players may need some discussion (which is a give and take) about the topic of how their character might reasonably react. Some players may not be interested even after a discussion. Without some interest in playing out the moral choices and reactions that are part of the space opera genre, they won't be very interesting (to me) as Star Wars players. |
Whether they need them or not, I would think even experienced players appreciate hints every now and then. I have done some stage acting in my time, and working from a script is always much easier than improvising something. Every good actor makes the part their own, thereby making their individual performance unique, but they will always appreciate having some sort of framework upon which they can flesh-out their character. IMO, roleplaying is the same way. In both cases, you are playing a roll, and it helps to have as much knowledge as you can get, especially when you are starting out.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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