Discrepancy in the Imperial Sourcebook?

[TheDoctor]

In the Imperial Sourcebook 2nd ed., on page 61, an Imperial Star Destroyer is said to carry a "full stormtrooper division". The page also lists the capacity as being 9,700 troops.

However on page 83 which details the Order of Battle, a "division" is not listed as one of the military units utilized by the Empire.

Additionally, Stormtroopers are organized by squads, platoons, companies, batallions ("820 men, just like any other batallion), regiments and finally legions. Given that regiments are "generally" 4 batallions, and that a legion is assumed to be 4 regiments (as a battlegroup would be), a full legion would be 13,120 troopers!

So does anyone have an explanation or theory to explain the discrepancies?

I realize I should find better things to do with my time...
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"We attack under cover of daylight. Yes it's the last thing they'll be expecting, a daylight charge over the minefield." - Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC SSC

[CRMcNeill]

[Dustflier]

It looks like they took the standard legion (13,120 stormtroopers) and divided it by an arbitrary 1.35257732 to get the full amount of troopers on the Death Star. I bet the original term they were going to use was "a full stormtrooper grouping number that is composed of a legion, then undergoing arbitrary mathematical functions including division," but decided to shorten it.

So they ended up with a "full stormtrooper division," with 9,700 troops.

What, am I missing something?
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Also known as Kiss My Wookiee on Discord and Reddit.

[TheDoctor]

[Dustflier]

[CRMcNeill]

Like I said, the Imperial Handbook was designed by committee. If you look at the starship stats, none of the troop totals match unit sizes described in the Sector Group Organization chapter. A VSD I has capacity for a little over 2,000 troops, yet none of the standard Imperial Army units match to that size. When I look at ships like the ISD and the VSD I, I modify their troop contingents so that they are something along the lines of US Marine Corps MEU-SOCs or MEBs, so that, rather than carrying a full division or regiment, the ships carry a reinforced unit of the next organizational step down (i.e. regiment instead of battlegroup, battalion instead of regiment), then fill the extra space with Walker units, scouts, armored repulsorlifts, artillery, combat engineers and the like. They may reduce numbers of combat troops, but a smaller combat unit reinforced with the right kinds of troops is far more versatile and effective.

I figure an ISD carries 4 line battalions of stormtroopers, and deploys three of them in a full combat landing. One battalion deploys aboard an AT-AT company on landing barges, one battalion deploys on a mixed group of repulsorlift combat vehicles (tanks, IFVs, APCs, repulsorscouts and the like), and the third would deploy aboard Sentinel Landing Craft, like air assault troops. The final battalion would be held in reserve aboard the ISD, and could be deployed where needed by a second wave of Sentinels or dropships.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Kemper Boyd]

[vanir]

Okay talking real world conventions here, regiments and larger formations are ad hoc and very interpretive, often they represent nothing more than a strategic expression, not actual troop numbers.

army group
army
regiment
division
battalion
company
platoon
squad

but it doesn't quite go that way in terms of battlefield representation. Often a division with attachments is an army, a regiment is a couple of divisions plus attachments designed for a specific objective, an army group is often an army plus attachments or maybe several combined armies, an army can have almost any number of divisions but roughly 8 plus attachments is popular...the only true static measures are divisions and battalions plus support companies and for this reason most military historians compare battlefield formations in terms of divisions fielded and not regiments, armies or army groups.

For stormtrooper formations I used a simplified measure with the base rule that Stormtrooper Battalions are specified as opposed to all other military formations as every individual being a front line combatant, without exception. This doesn't mean they have no support formations, it just means the cook will cut you like a pig and look just like a rifleman.

Second point is my personal rule that Star Destroyers do not carry 9000+ Stormtroopers, they carry one Legion (1000 troops with a Stormtrooper Colonel) plus CompForce Assault and CompForce Troop forces making up the difference, with equipment and vehicles, if an Imperial II or regular Imperial Army Troops if Imperial I.
I have adjudicated that part of the standard crew compliment includes Imperial Navy security Troops at the regimental level.
This is in addition to the normal cargo stowage of modular bases with all personnel and equipment.

An extremely high level character party I once GM'd which had an entire planetary fleet and a heavily armoured mercinary company thought it was a nice idea to board an Imperial Star Destroyer once, it was approximately the dumbest thing they ever did and a small handful were lucky to escape with their lives despite being capable of probably giving Darth Vader a whatfor in a round or two of combat. Needless to say they lost everything.

Back to the real world, a regiment is typically organised as an army attachment for specific strategic capabilities. For example you might have an army with one tank and two infantry divisions, and you don't have the forces to put three together for a major strategic battle that you need more tanks to accomplish so you put together an attachment with a tank division and say two infantry battalions instead, for similar effect with fewer reserves. It is still called an army but the attachment is an armoured regiment and the whole shebang is still commanded by a colonel-general just like an army group. It just cost you less troops and won't last as long in extended conflict. On the books it's written as an army but it has the combat capability of an army group.

so when the Imperial Sourcebook says "stormtrooper battalion, then regiment and finally legion" they mean a legion is a battalion with support personnel (eg. AT-AT drivers, TIE pilots, security troops, technicians but everybody is variously armed and armoured), whilst a regiment is any number of stormtroopers exceeding a full legion assigned to an objective, for example a legion plus two companies is a regiment. This makes sense especially because environment specific stormtrooper types exist.

When the Imperial Army says a battalion they mean more like 620 troops and 240 non-combatants, meaning they hardly know what to do with a blaster if you put in their hands but can whip up a great omlette.

Stormtrooper divisions I consider a misnomer. The next rank beyond Colonel is Imperial Guardsmen which are independent of the formations, whilst Colonels answer to Imperial Army Generals, Navy Captains, Admirals and Emissaries of the Emperor. Nobody else. Also Stormtrooper Colonels are fully authorised to commit mutiny aboard any starship or base assignment at their personal discretion, in reality they answer to nobody but the Emperor himself.

Stormtrooper Colonels are in charge of battalions, add the support personnel to fill the numbers to 1000 and you have a legion. This is what is on a Star Destroyer. You don't need anything more, but take away specialised environment companies and you have 600 regular Stormtroopers, just like an Army Battalion.

That was where I landed with them anyway.

[CRMcNeill]

[vanir]

Ah, corps is what I was missing, I was confusing regiments with corps up there in some statements. However what I was referencing in this instance was Soviet formations during WW2.
Tank brigades were the equivalent of an armoured division in every respect except that soviet doctrine was that artillery was never assigned until the SPG appeared after 1943, it stayed with the rifle divisions but was used in support. This is command structure nomenclature rather than reflecting fielded units, a Soviet tank brigade was every bit the same thing as a Wehrmacht panzer division in most respects in the field, it would just never penetrate as far from the infantry divisions as german armour would because of the need for artillery support, or more to the point the Soviet doctrine of massed artillery which stayed with the rifle divisions.

Stormtrooper colonels appear in the Death Star sourcebook. Back when we started gaming there weren't many sourcebooks available so we used this and the Imperial Sourcebook in conjunction, actually when we first started out there was only two books published by WEG, the players handbook and one sourcebook (the rebel one I think, long time ago hard to remember...edit, no actually I think it was just called the Star Wars Sourcebook).

But let's have a look at famous wehrmacht formation, modern military conventions were pretty much invented by the Prussians. In the infamous Stalingrad 6th Army The VIII Korps had 2 infantry divisions. The LI Korps had 5 infantry, 1 antitank plus regimental attachment and 2 tank divisions for a total of 8 divisions plus attachments. XXIV Panzerkorps had 1 tank, 2 motorised and 1 infantry division. XI Korps had 3 infantry divisions.

Static convention simply isn't working here, they're organised by strategic need, command structure designed for logistical support rather than any description of actual formations.

The Soviet 62nd Army had 12 rifle divisions, 3 tank brigades (independent but divisional when attached), 1 marine infantry brigade (divisional), 5 special brigades (shock troops, regimental and independent), and a special rifle division assigned by the NKVD from Moscow.

The 1st SS Panzergrenadier Battalion in late 1941 was in fact listed as Brigade despite the name, and it had 4 battalions plus 2 attachments (assault guns and motorised light infantry), 1 Scout company (battalion strength), a full Artillery Regiment (no kidding), 1 Combat-engineer Battalion, and 2 support companies (battalion strength each).
Total company strength is 43.

In 1943 the same formation was renamed the 1st SS Panzer Division, it contained no less than 7 full regiments plus attachments and was listed as Brigade strength.
In 1944 the same formation again was finally listed at full Divisional strength, has about 30% more combatants listed but looks pretty much identical on paper at the regimental, battalion and company level.


When it comes to boots in the dirt, nomenclature is wholly strategic expression, it has nothing to do with what is being fielded. Hell in the field entire tank divisions occasionally had no more than 50 tanks serviceable. Other times it's more like 600.

Oh, the specific reason truth be told why I reassigned Legion to be 1000 stormtroopers (led by a Stormtrooper-Colonel) is because the word means 1000 (and Stormtrooper-Colonel is the highest ranked feller in Stormtrooper armour as depicted in the Death Star supplement).

[vanir]

Also, I do apolegise if I seem to have just come roaming into this site acting like a know it all, it is by no means my assumption.

[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

[vanir]

Ah cool, I should probably shutup now so I don't sound like a bigger idiot
Thanks for the clarification. Was sure legion was just latin for a thousand so I didn't even bother looking it up (normally I would).
Really got to get a handle on my drunk posting

oh and death star technical manual, that's what it was (been a few years, my friend has the book collection but I don't anymore, we'll be using his in our gaming).

[Bren]

Roman legions in the Imperial period had a nominal, not an average, strength of 6000. They were almost invariably under strength. Legions had smaller nominal strengths in the earlier Republican periods.

If you want to know more about legions, wiki has a general over view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_legion

And yes the forum has it's share of know-it-alls. Welcome to the club.