Rules for Dun Moch

[CRMcNeill]

As part of my Lightsaber Combat revamp, I've been trying to think up a good rule for Dun Moch, as it does seem to be a part of most every Sith Lord's combat strategy (save for Darth Maul). It would be simple enough to simply combine Persuasion with Enhance Attribute, but that feels too simplistic for me. Dun Moch seems to be primarily based on the Sith Lord sensing their opponent's weakness through some Sense power variation, then using that information to taunt and goad their opponent into rash action. In some ways, it's almost like a variation on Shatterpoint, in that a Sith Lord can sense his opponent's weakness and capitalize on it through spoken word.

In point of fact, every canon lightsaber duel between a Jedi and a Sith was as much psychological as physical, with one or both duelists using Sense-assisted persuasion to one degree or another. Even Maul, who never said a single word during the E1 duel, was still taunting Qui-gon and Obi-wan with his facial expressions, unnecessary flourishes and displays of Force power.

I want to integrate the Dun Moch concept with my Willpower DSP rule, and the rule is currently in progress, so mostly what I'm looking for here is ideas to help me bring the concept into better fruition.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[hazardchris]

The rules for Niman in the Lightsaber Styles PDF might be a good place to start. Here's the relevant text:

[garhkal]

All i have read on the Dun mock (dim mack) have it as an actual death touch..not just a taunt/insight into weakness...

So if i Was to come up with something for it..

Dim Mach/Dun mock (death touch).
This estoric and powerful martial art strike is the most feared, as it allows the martial artist to literally 'explode hearts/heads' and decide when a target hit with it dies...
Requires (A) martial arts at a min of 10d with all other special maneuvers the style teaches to have been learned (if using maneuvers out of rules of engagement). The prospective 'student' then must spend 30cp and 6 months of game time learning it, and succeed on a knowledge roll at difficult to gain the capacity to use this power.
Game effects: Once learned a jedi or other martial artist who knows this can strike a target (normal martial art roll to hit) and must immediately spend a force point to set up the 'rhythms of death' in someone. He can choose, based on the below chart, any point from Instant to the max duration listed, to have "Death" come to the target. High strength, willpower or other "soaking methods" do NOT stop this happening.
When he hits, and after the above FP is spent, a 'contest of 'SOULS" happens where the Dim mack user rolls his Control (or perception) +1d per FP the user posesses. (NOTE each DSP the user posesses adds 2d, but accepting this bonus instantly gives the user another dark side point. IF he refuses the bonus, each DSP posessed removes 1d).
The target resists with perception (or alter) +1d per force point he possesses. The
0-5 diff = target can be 'killed' within 1 minute of strike'
6-10 diff = target can be killed up to 1 hour after strike.
11-15 diff = target can be killed up to 6 hours after strike, can be called off
16-20 diff = target can be killed up to 24 hours after strike. CAN BE "called off at Dim mack users decision"
21-25 diff = Target can be killed up to 48 hrs after strike, can be called off at any time
26-30 diff = target can be killed up to 96 hrs after strike. can be called off

Note i give a 'calling it off' ability as many sources i have read, seems to indicate the monk who hit you has some control over when/if you die.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

[Esoomian]

Having read the Wookieepedia description for Dun Moch and whittling it down to its core (which I believe to be: The practitioner attempts to use his target's emotions to disrupt his concentration) this is what I'd do.

Run Lightsaber Combat as normal if the practitioner hits his opponent then rather than rolling damage he rolls just his control but the target does not soak with his strength+amour he soaks with his willpower.

This represents the practitioner taunting his opponent and causing humiliating, painful minor injuries that inflame the target's emotions but cause no real lasting damage. In my mind if you're actually looking to kill someone then you should use some other form Dun Moch is about corruption not killing.

For every 2 points that the practitioner beats the targets soak apply a one pip penalty to all of the target's actions, they do not apply to automatic actions such as soak and willpower tests however. These penalties are cumulative so a drawn out battle can result in the target racking up a large number of penalties. The penalties stack like regular pips so every three penalty pips becomes one die.

If the amount of penalties ever equals or exceeds the targets willpower score then the target is utterly demoralized and treated as incapacitated. They may not act at all while they are incapacitated but every round they are incapacitated the penalty is lowered by one pip and if the penalty drops below the character's willpower score they may act again.

In this way a Jedi being targeted can be worn down and captured, dispatched or perhaps even just further tormented once he has lost the will to fight but if the practitioner is unable to capitalize on his success, perhaps because there are multiple combatants then the Jedi may be able to recover.

At any point during the combat before he becomes incapacitated the target may call on the dark side. If he does so successfully then he gains all the benefits of calling on the Dark Side and the penalties accrued are not applied during the round he calls on the Dark Side.

This represents the practitioner's taunts causing a complete (but perhaps momentary) complete lack of control and it also demonstrates the risks of Dun Moch, a prolonged psychological assault can result in the target being broken down and being able to be remade in your own image but it could also result in the target snapping and using all the emotions the practitioner stirred up to strike him down.
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Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

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[Bren]

I like Esoomian's idea and I think it captures the advantages and disadvantages of the evil guys taunting the heroes, One concern is it potentially requires tracking a lot of pips. (Though I am also certain this will actually increase the appeal for some on the forum. )

I wonder if there is a way to treat it more like wounds in Star Wars combat rather than like hit points? Possibly just tracking in whole Ds rather than in pips?

[Esoomian]

Yes the wound system I've proposed is quite cumbersome.

My idea still needs some adjustment to be a really workable system so feel free to offer fixes/alterations.

You could just say that every six points the practitioner beats the target results in a one die penalty for the target or just have it use the standard wound chart but treat incapacitated as a much more temporary condition. I suppose killed would have to be treated as something like complete psychological collapse.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.

[Bren]

[Esoomian]

That all seems to work fairly well, I wouldn't have a problem using a system like that in my games.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.

[jmanski]

[Esoomian]

I considered something like that but then I decided that unless the target is also using Dun Moch (or the rare reverse Dun Moch) then succeeding in combat is going to result in an injury for the Dun Moch practioner. It seemed like too much to also give the target psychological reinforcement as well.

I quite like the idea but if it's a side effect of winning then it detracts from the viability of Dun Moch as a combat style and if it gives the target a free action willpower roll to counteract some of the penalties then it could quickly end up being too much dice rolling.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.

[Blue Glowie]

This is only touching on the demoralizing aspect. It seems like there's also a corruption aspect to it too.

It would cool if a result of 16+, or something, taunted the target into gaining a DSP by attacking with anger/fear/aggression.

[Esoomian]

Well my personal preference is that the Dark Side point should almost always come down to a player's (not character's but player's) choice.

That's why they can resist Dun Moch by giving in to their rage and in so doing gain a Dark Side Point but just using Dun Moch won't give the target DSPs until you completely collapse their psyche and reshape their world view (a proccess that should take an extended period of time).

Additionally the Wookieepedia description of Dun Moch doesn't really specify corruption per se that's more of a psycological side effect of a prolonged battle of wills on many scales. Dun Moch is about disrupting a target and keeping him distracted and 'off centre' by purposefully attempting to engage the target on an emotional level.

While I have said the incapacitation is a result of demoralization it could be any number of things that caused the incapacitation.
_________________
Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.

Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.

[Blue Glowie]