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tetsuoh Captain
Joined: 21 Jul 2010 Posts: 505
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:29 am Post subject: Really GOOFY question about credits... |
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What do you all use in game or in your mind as a visual for credits? |
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Critias Ensign
Joined: 30 Jun 2010 Posts: 34
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:29 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure where/when I first got the visual, but I tend to picture hexagonal coins, or maybe the ones with holes in the center (like the ancient Chinese ones). Different materials denote different denominations, with various designs etched on depending on who minted them. Maybe with small computer chips or other trackers inside, to make for fast "sci fi" type counting/adding/whatever, too. |
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Praxian Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Posts: 190
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Actually I use coins for various things up to 100 creds, after which I skip up to "Cred Sticks" for dump accounts which hold up to several thousand under each one (see Cyber-punk for cred stick rules).
Anything over 50k in creds needs an account with a tracking number.
For me though, a visual cue is coins. copper coins (like pennies) = 1 cred, and etc going up to using various other things. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14215 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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.5 cred, 1 cred, 2 cred, 5 cred, 10 cred, 20 cred, 25 cred, 50 cred, 100 cred, 200 cred, 500 cred and 1000 cred coins exist in my games... Above that people either wire the money or use certified cred sticks. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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scott2978 Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 220 Location: Arizona, USA
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jonnjonnzz Ensign
Joined: 15 Aug 2010 Posts: 26
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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In my campaigns, it depends on where you are in the galaxy; credits can take on various different forms.
In the Core Worlds, you can count on credcards, credsticks or cash vouchers (see Han Solo at Stars End).
The further away you get from Imperial controlled areas, the more common hard currency becomes i.e. paper notes on lower tech world, coinage minted in various precious metals.
Some areas you may find a mix, with the currency being plastic chits embedded with circuitry or a computer chip denoting its value.
For truly large denominations/amounts, credits will only exist as electronic funds.
Borrowing some of the concepts from Shadowrun annd R Talsorian's Cyberpunk games, you could always have credsticks also serve as someone's identification as well. |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:08 am Post subject: |
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The link that scott2978 provided shows that method that is pretty similar to what we've used in our campaign. The link has a nice writeup 8)
The Rebel group that our players belong to is based in and near Elrood Sector and is called the Union of Free Planets. Those Rebels issue their own scrip called U-creds or U-credits, short for Union Credits.
Only Rebels and strong Rebel sympathizers will accept U-creds. But it works well for internal transactions and it is sometimes used for "buying" equipement in the field. Sort of one step up from out right confiscation. It also gives the Union something besides hard cash to pay their troops with. |
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Barrataria Commander
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 295 Location: Republic of California
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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: still thinking on this |
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I started that other thread linked above, and I thought through this on the train ride home today, so it's a work in progress, especially the names (post-Endor campaign). Depending on where the campaign takes place, and which "side" the players are on, they will encounter the following:
Imperial/New Republic Credits: the default currency in the pocket Empires is the Imperial version, virtually unchanged since before Skywalker's treasonous assassination of the Emperor. The NR version is identical, struck in formerly-Imperial mints. They are made of a space-age polymer that looks suspiciously like plastic, the Imperial versions bearing (duh) an image of the Emperor, and the Republic Credits bearing the image of various Old Republic heroes (?!) like Jar Jar Binks and Qui-Gon. The intrinsic value of the credit may bounce up and down in times (or areas) of scarcity or economic upheaval, but for the most part 1 Imp= 1 NR. The trick is that it's illegal in each place to convert to the other. So all exchange has to be done on the black market, or in neutral ports (in this campaign, probably Bespin and herdships), if necessary.
Ithorian Lifestones: The Ithorians have certain secret methods of creating plant-based crystalline substances, of which amber is the closest equivalent we know. They are in various shapes, sizes, and 8 shades (ROYGBIV, plus a color that is clear to human eyes but iridescent to Ithorians and the most valuable). They have intrinsic value to the Ithorians, and are valued as gemstones in the pocket Empires and New Republic territories (probably 4x credits, or some such).
Bespin Vaporglobes: Coinage in the independent Cloud City is fashioned from small clear crystal spheres, each filled with an exotic gas. When fed with an electrical current, the gasses glow in a variety of colors, which allows verification of their worth. These are prized in the Imperial and New Republic regions because their worth derives from the vast Bespin economy (which will be akin to Swiss banks, a place where Imperial and NR scoundrels and exiles wish to stash their money). A basic vaporglobe will fetch 2x Imperial/NR credits. Like the lifestones, vaporglobes can be exchanged fairly freely in Imperial or NR space, but not used as currency for basic transactions with legitimate businesses.
Hutt Wupiwupi:This coin is forged from [some precious metal], and its value is set by hutt gangsters at 10 wp= 1 slave. It is useful only in hutt space, and exchangeable only on the black market in "shadowports", including the lower levels of Cloud City. Ithorians don't want them at all.
Ancient Coinage: Occasionally players might run across ancient Republic or Sith coins. These are in a variety of metals, and mostly valuable to collectors or museum curators.
Local currency: Planets and local authorities, within and without the Empire and NR, mint a variety of stuff in a variety of forms, but usually will accept Imp/NR credits on at least a 1:1 basis (local currency almost never has much value off-world). Akin to spending US dollars somewhere and getting local currency as change.
Credit Sticks: I still think USB keys (see other thread) are incredibly boring and low tech for money transfers. But I haven't yet thought up something more interesting.
Virtual Accounts: Gigantic financial corporations make virtual accounts possible across systems via electronic transfer. Large amounts of funds are usually moved in this fashion, and these transfers can cross Imp/NR boundaries as many of the monoliths operate across those same boundaries, the account information carried via courier ships criss-crossing the trade lanes. _________________ "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing"- George Lucas |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Barrataria:
Quote: | I started that other thread linked above, and I thought through this on the train ride home today, so it's a work in progress, especially the names (post-Endor campaign). Depending on where the campaign takes place, and which "side" the players are on, they will encounter the following: |
Barrataria, did you start a thread under a different name? Otherwise I am unsure of the link to which you are referring. I think what you are using adds some color. Is it invented or already part of the EU?
Quote: | Imperial/New Republic Credits: |
I like the idea of the New Republic hearkening back to the heroes of old. Alternately I could see them using the modern heroes. Imagine the fun when Han Solo wants to go undercover and people recognize him cause his face is staring up from the piles of coins at the Sabac table.
If you are really interested in currency, I would definitely have the value fluctuate with the galaxy’s assessment of which side is winning, NR or Imperial Remnant. And currency exchange would be a big part of all gray or black markets.
Quote: | Ithorian Lifestones: |
Seems colorful, but I don’t quite grasp why the Ithorians would use a different currency. Wouldn't that complicate their ability to travel and trade, since customers would not want to be stuck with coins they can’t use until the next Herd Ship wanders by. Unless perhaps it is used mostly for Herd Ship to Herd Ship transactions?
Quote: | Bespin Vaporglobes: |
Is the rationale here that you want Bespin as a kind of Switzerland, so it needs it’s own currency? I just don’t see a single floating city/mining colony having a large enough economy to support it's own currency and the vulnerability of the city itself would argue against the currency being sufficiently safe or secure for anyone off planet to want to use it.
I kind of like this as it highlights the callousness and cruelty of Hutt Space. Of course that is obviously a nominal slave value, right? I might be inclinded to have a unit that equals the nominal value of one slave as it heightens how slave-based the Hutt economy is.
Is Wupiwupi a typo for Wupiupi?
According to Wookieepedia
"A trugut was equal to sixteen wupiupi and four truguts equaled one peggat. The peggat was a Huttese currency made of gold and used in the Outer Rim Territories during the last decades of the Galactic Republic. At that time, a single peggat's worth fluctuated near forty standard credits."
After Anakin won the Boonta Eve pod-race, Gardula the Hutt offered Watto 50,000 peggats (~ 2 million credits) to buy Anakin. Which gives a rough (very high) upper limit on the value of a slave.
Agree. We have used this as well.
This is pretty much how we play this, though sometimes there are local currency exchanges.
Quote: | Credit Sticks: I still think USB keys (see other thread) are incredibly boring and low tech for money transfers. But I haven't yet thought up something more interesting. |
I don’t understand your objection to the Cred-Stick or why you think coins, globes, and so forth are somehow higher tech. We just take Cred-Sticks as a way to carry money without needing a briefcase (or suitcase) to carry the coins and without having to wait for a galactic electronic transfer to clear, but with the downside of greater traceability in the transaction.
A courier ship shouldn’t be needed. Even after the Emperor dismantled the galaxy wide holonet, messages could still be sent, just a bit slower. A large financial institution could send an encrypted holo-message, which even if it has to bounce a bit from bank to bank, should still be far faster than a ship. That allows people to holotransfer money from one account to another with only a minimal wait for the funds to clear (basically the time to round trip holo messages plus some admin time by the bank). |
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Barrataria Commander
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 295 Location: Republic of California
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your feedback, it's nice to get some outside thoughts.
Bren wrote: | Barrataria, did you start a thread under a different name? Otherwise I am unsure of the link to which you are referring. I think what you are using adds some color. Is it invented or already part of the EU? |
Yes, the one scott linked above. Like I said, scribbled down in a 15 minute train ride yesterday. I think the plastic money I am thinking of is from the "Stainless Steel Rat" books, although IIRC those were notes and not chits.
Quote: | Imagine the fun when Han Solo wants to go undercover and people recognize him cause his face is staring up from the piles of coins at the Sabac table. |
Consider that swiped It does make for all sorts of fun things; penalties for possession of enemy currency might vary depending on who is pictured on them... I can see an Imperial propaganda nut holding "burn Skywalker" rallies where credits with Luke are bought up (at a discount, of course) and burned.
Quote: | I would definitely have the value fluctuate with the galaxy’s assessment of which side is winning, NR or Imperial Remnant. And currency exchange would be a big part of all gray or black markets. |
I agree; I'm not worrying about it much unless the players end up doing a lot of smuggling/stealing from criminals, and a lot of crossing between NR and Imperial regions. I'm thinking the NR credits hold up better across different NR regions, but not gone that far yet.
The simple hurdle I want them to face is having to explain Imperial credits in NR space, and vice versa. And dealing with unsavory characters to get currency they can use, rather than taking their "gold pieces" to the "general store" to buy gear. If they just want to play mercs or commandos or whatever, and have no interest in dealing with this stuff, they can just swap their recovered loot to their NR handler, and the players need not be bothered.
Quote: | Ithorian Lifestones ...Bespin Vaporglobes |
I think your questions miss the concept. These are two examples of local currencies (relevant to the area I'm working with) that are valuable intrinsically as well as for the stability of the financial system that backs them. The Ithorians will be able to float around through most areas of space, and will (somehow) have regular communications with other herdships/colonies across the galaxy. Bespin will be so valued by all sides as neutral ground and for the gases available there, that their currency is far more stable than plastic chits, like that of the Ithorians. It's a lot more likely that random aliens or humans on other worlds will find them interesting or collectible and therefore more valuable than plastic chits; I'm thinking of Opium War-era trade with China. Ithorian stones will be prized in almost every civilized area; Bespin globes might be less so on the other side of the galaxy, but still worth more than enemy plastic to a merchant or moneychanger.
Quote: | Is Wupiwupi a typo for Wupiupi? |
Yes, and thanks, as I couldn't find it in Wookieepedia yesterday before I posted that. And good info re the slave value, although surely a slave like Shmi was worth less, with her... wait, what was her trade again?
Quote: | I don’t understand your objection to the Cred-Stick |
I was dog-piled in the other thread for this already; it apparently amounts to an idiosyncrasy on my part.
Quote: | why you think coins, globes, and so forth are somehow higher tech. |
I don't think coins are higher tech, I think they're lower tech and in many places in the galaxy folk will be reduced to using them again as the Civil War messes up intergalactic trade.
I think the globes and stones are higher tech since we already have thumbdrives and not teeny tiny unbreakable crystals with fluorescent gases in them or advanced plant science that allows manipulation and creation of diamond-like substances from biological material. Or at least not available in the corner store, like USB keys or camera cards. And I envision that Bespin produces the scanner that can verify both currencies, which will hopefully be pretty weird.
Quote: | A courier ship shouldn’t be needed. Even after the Emperor dismantled the galaxy wide holonet, messages could still be sent, just a bit slower. A large financial institution could send an encrypted holo-message, which even if it has to bounce a bit from bank to bank, should still be far faster than a ship. |
I'm still developing thoughts on this, as I want communications to be less reliable between the various settlements, but not as limited as in Traveller. The NR might have something like the holonet, but it will be limited to major worlds and official communications. Definitely not a starfighter on Geonosis sending a hologram to Coruscant That will also serve to isolate the various pocket Empires, which will be another reason they haven't managed to coordinate their efforts. _________________ "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing"- George Lucas |
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Raven Redstar Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 Posts: 2648 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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What about making the cred-sticks like have some sort of "pay pass" charge system? Instead of having to plug it in, you just sorta tap it to, or wave in front of the reader, and it gets the info that way.
Also existing tech, but I think it's cooler... |
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Barrataria Commander
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 295 Location: Republic of California
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Raven Redstar wrote: | What about making the cred-sticks like have some sort of "pay pass" charge system? Instead of having to plug it in, you just sorta tap it to, or wave in front of the reader, and it gets the info that way.
Also existing tech, but I think it's cooler... |
Yes, I went to a product demonstration of something like this not long ago, which got me thinking about combining comlinks and cred sticks/accounts. But then that just brings it to current tech... a galaxy far far away where adventurers can't be without their cellphones
I want to come up with something that's different tech, but I haven't yet. I had been thinking of some kind of Johnny Socko-type wristwatch, but my wife (who works in a high school) noted the other day that "kids these days" never wear wristwatches, since they always use their phones for that purpose. _________________ "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing"- George Lucas |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Barrataria: Quote: | I think your questions miss the concept. These are two examples of local currencies (relevant to the area I'm working with) that are valuable intrinsically as well as for the stability of the financial system that backs them. The Ithorians will be able to float around through most areas of space, and will (somehow) have regular communications with other herdships/colonies across the galaxy. Bespin will be so valued by all sides as neutral ground and for the gases available there, that their currency is far more stable than plastic chits, like that of the Ithorians. It's a lot more likely that random aliens or humans on other worlds will find them interesting or collectible and therefore more valuable than plastic chits; I'm thinking of Opium War-era trade with China. Ithorian stones will be prized in almost every civilized area; Bespin globes might be less so on the other side of the galaxy, but still worth more than enemy plastic to a merchant or moneychanger. |
No, I got the concept. I just disagree that the items would have an invariant intrinsic value. In a galactic economy life gems or glowing bulbs will have different values in different regions. Species X likes glowy bulb things, species Y does not. The valuation variation will be even more pronounced with the barriers you want for communication, travel, and trade. That’s how merchants in Traveller make money. They buy X at a low price then take it to a new location where they can get a higher price. This works because travel and communication is difficult and slow. We see that in the real world where rapid communication and easier travel causes commodities to have global prices, for example, real oil prices vary very little world wide. Similarly for the fuel at the pump. What accounts for large price differences are government taxes or subsidies. This is true because markets are effectively global for commodities. If the price offered for oil in country X is too low, producers and shippers will just sell it elsewhere.
If the value of the currency is based on intrinsic worth, that will vary galaxy wide. The consequence is that in a sweeping galactic Empire, glowing bulbs and artificial amberite will not make a good currency cause they intrinsically are worth a lot to some folks and little or nothing to others. That is likely to lower the liquidity of the currency which is a bad thing for currency. The Ithorians present an additional problem since one has to hold their currency until there is another chance to trade with some Ithorians which might take weeks, months, or longer. This further decreases the liquidity and hence the value.
It seems you want something less galactic in scope and scale (sort of like Traveller) and you want a precious metal/gem (gold/silver/diamonds) standard rather than a galactic currency. Probably part of my problem is in the real world I find the the value that some people attach to gold, silver, or diamonds a bit like wearing a tricorner hat – odd and slightly quaint.
I think I get what you are trying to do and if not feel free to correct me. It’s not my view of a galactic Empire, but hey if it works for you great. You can probably minimize some of the problems by having your campaign focus on the region around Bespin and sprinkle the region liberally with Herd Ships or just ignore my concerns. It’s not like I have a Noble prize for economics or anything.
I am thinking that someone in your universe may want to destabilize Bespin. A commando team putting a bunch of thermodetonators in the repulsor engines could allow a currency trader who shorted Gas Bulbs to make a killing as the extrinsic value of the Bespin Gas Bulp crashes relative to the Ithorian Life Gem.
From your other post:
Quote: | I want to come up with something that's different tech, but I haven't yet. I had been thinking of some kind of Johnny Socko-type wristwatch, but my wife (who works in a high school) noted the other day that "kids these days" never wear wristwatches, since they always use their phones for that purpose. |
Lately, the only time I wear a watch is when I travel multiple timezones away. Changing to local time on my crackberry wrecks the synch for Outlook, so I need a watch when traveling to know what time it is where I am. |
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Barrataria Commander
Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 295 Location: Republic of California
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | If the value of the currency is based on intrinsic worth, that will vary galaxy wide. The consequence is that in a sweeping galactic Empire |
There is no "sweeping galactic empire". There's a bunch of pocket Empires, one big NR blob, and a few satellite NR blobs.
I like that word, and I appreciate your input in this thread. /swiped
Bren wrote: | Probably part of my problem is in the real world I find the the value that some people attach to gold, silver, or diamonds a bit like wearing a tricorner hat – odd and slightly quaint. |
Fair enough, but humans have spent much of their history attaching values to objects (say, tulips) not necessarily with regard to their economic worth. Even before it occurred to someone to create a cartel and begin saturation bombing the airwaves with guidelines of how many months' salary should be spent on consideration for a marriage contract in the form of a tiny shard of highly-compressed coal I think the Bespin and Ithor currencies I'm describing are aesthetically pleasing, and I think those two particular populations would appreciate that, and both of these places will be smart enough to control the supply.
Bren wrote: | It’s not my view of a galactic Empire |
The Death Star is gone, the Emperor is dead, and the pocket Empires and New Republic are scrambling to fill all those big nasty starships with warm bodies. No Galactic Empire. In fact, I've been reading a bit of this lately:http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=148&it=1. I am shrinking the "controlled" areas and growing the "wild" areas.
Bren wrote: | I am thinking that someone in your universe may want to destabilize Bespin. A commando team putting a bunch of thermodetonators in the repulsor engines could allow a currency trader who shorted Gas Bulbs to make a killing as the extrinsic value of the Bespin Gas Bulp crashes relative to the Ithorian Life Gem. |
Sounds like Lando's problem, not mine I'm sure the Ithorians will properly hedge with inversely-corresponding assets to prevent these kind of base manipulations. And I should be so lucky if my players are that excited about running a complicated scam like that rather than running Fed Ex missions for the local New Republic bureaucrat... _________________ "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing"- George Lucas |
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Bren Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Barrataria
Quote: | There is no "sweeping galactic empire". There's a bunch of pocket Empires, one big NR blob, and a few satellite NR blobs. |
Ok, now I get the setting you envision. Obviously this better supports what you are doing. As an analogy, I guess this is kind of like the breakup of the Roman Empire. Now you have a constellation of smaller kingdoms and wannabe "empires" rather than one major Empire.
I was seeing the NR era as being a bit more like the cold war with two major powers NR and Imperial remnant, with a cluster of non-aligned states on the edges that are trying to either stay independent or to form advantageous alliances with one of the two big players. But there would still be a functioning galactic infrastructure for communications and banking. Sort-of like how railroads worked in the US Civil War - rail worked well until you got near the borders of hostilities.
Glad you found some thoughts you could use. It was kind of fun looking at a less typical SW problem that doesn't revolve around either combat or the Force. |
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