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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject: Official vs. Home Brew Stats.... |
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I'm just curious:
I just read some of the RoTS sourcebook thread and came across a pretty heated discussion about how powerful characters would be in a given era...
But, why is it so important to use official or semi-official stats (in this case) for NPCs that are not likely to ever need to make a skill check in a game session at your table? Or, for that matter, are not even likely to show up in the campaign?
The other thing is... why get so "into it" when we all know that the people who are writing the sourcebooks are just making up the stats anyway? I mean, if they can make it up, so can I. If it doesn't match up with what I think (and it usually doesn't), I just use my own stats.
Now, I'm genuinely grateful for the time and effort that goes into the conversions and fan-based material, as it provides a wealth of useful info and insight that I wouldn't have, as I have not explored the EU at all.
But, I always take the stats of characters with a grain of salt. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Why you gotta bring up old $hit?
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure I was part of that conversation. I honestly can't tell you why we fight over it, apart from an obsessive compulsive need for accuracy in our gaming material. But you are right that it is ridiculous to get so anal (and venal) over something so unlikely to ever make an appearance in-game.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure I was not a part of that debate, since I don't run characters in the clone wars era. I can see though some need for accuracy because there are a few GMs out there like me who will let their characters attack Boba Fett or Darth Vader if they want, and let them win if they can beat 'em. I can also see trying to Persuade or Con someone like Mon Mothma to lend you a battle cruiser for a month or so and needing to make an opposed skill check.
However I'm also of the "play with the official stats" school of thought, though so it wouldn't matter all that much to me even if my game did somehow brush up against that era.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was in "that" conversation briefly. I think the reason some get so upset is the same reason for most arguments here: there are two sides. You have the side that says "use NPCs as they are in the book", and you have the "I don't like the way they are" folks.
In short: it's a game. There's right answer that will work for all of us.
As to "that" conversation... someone got huffy, others took offense, and it got ugly. What surprised me about "that" conversation is that usually this is such a friendly and polite place to debate such things.
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | I'm pretty sure I was not a part of that debate, since I don't run characters in the clone wars era. I can see though some need for accuracy because there are a few GMs out there like me who will let their characters attack Boba Fett or Darth Vader if they want, and let them win if they can beat 'em. I can also see trying to Persuade or Con someone like Mon Mothma to lend you a battle cruiser for a month or so and needing to make an opposed skill check.
However I'm also of the "play with the official stats" school of thought, though so it wouldn't matter all that much to me even if my game did somehow brush up against that era. |
Yea, I showed up after "that" conversation, but read through it all the same. I'm with Fallon Kell on this. I let my characters go toe-to-toe with those famous characters if they want. So I like to try and make them as close to canon as possible so they can actually feel they beat that person. Against the odds.
But then again the close to canon is always gonna be inaccurate at best, because canon always is changing depending of the author using the character.
As for disagreeing? I think it is more into human nature then the game we are actually playing. It is easy to get miffed over the internet. And we have all had arguments with friends, intensely so, about things that truly didn't matter. Video game arguments, which show is better, which music is better, etc, etc. |
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MasterKazur
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I can tell you precisely why we fought over it 
I posted an initial post asking why the Jedi in the "RotS"-book, that some people were making, were so weak compared the official stats for Jedi of that period ala Obi-Wan, Joruus C'baoth ect.
But the persons involved with the project failed to answer my question. They had, IMO, a shockingly poor ability to grasp the obvious logical problems with their builds and got extremely defensive with me.
I tried challenging the logic (or lack there off) in their stats, but they insisted that it was WEG that had made the official stats "wrong".
They eventually resorted to shut me up with threats based on things I'd never done, when I wasn't satisfied with their "answers".
In short, we fought, I think, because they didn't like the work they'd done being challenged by a "outsider". Which is a shame, because with some logical imput they could really have made some good stats. Oh, well...
I like having official characters show up in my games too.
Makes it feel that much more real. I had an entire party take on Darth Vader once (something they themselves sought out). Of course he kicked their butts pretty bad, but it added a sense of the universe to the game.
The official stats are more or less official "measuring sticks" to evaluate your character against.
Having house stats for the movie characters could work, I guess, but it would sorta defeat the purpose.
I'm not saying that you or I couldn't have come up with equally good stats if we had worked for WEG in the 80's and 90s but I don't think they would have been that different from the ones they made. We'd all have based the stats on the guidelines for skill-levels in the Core Book and also the novels of that era where the characters appear.
Dismissing the official stats simply because you think "they just made it up" is a silly idea and the very notion shows disrespect to the people of WEG, who made the game we all love. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:36 am Post subject: |
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_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | |
What a mature way to show off your shame 
I know what you're thinking: "if I just post an emoticon, I can't get in trouble". What you fail to realize, however, is that that emoticons are there in place of non-verbal communication. The fact that posted the emoticon is just as "bad" as writing the actual words.
It would be kind of like if you expressed your opinions on certain subject in a post and I posted a picture of someone giving the finger. You might as well articulate your opinion instead of pseudo-communicating it.
In short: If you disagree with me then don't hide behind little cartoon expressions. Tell me why you disagree and I'll take it into consideration and explain why I agree or disagree.
But I take it from your previous "post" that you don't wanna do that so let's just agree to disagree on the subject.
Let's let this thread be about official stats vs. homemade stats and why one could concievably be preferred over the other. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Well I think that did answer the question. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Well I think that did answer the question. |
I agree. I explained my POV ad nauseum in the original thread, and have no desire to rehash it. "Logic" aside, we were instructed by the Site Admin to drop it. Apparently that message was not received and understood by all involved parties.
P.S. And no, you don't know what I'm thinking. I posted the emoticon because rolling my eyes is exactly what I did when I read your post.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Azai
Lieutenant Commander
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Posts: 248
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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The hardest thing I find with homebrew starts is adapting canon characters to house rules.
That is a lot of "paperwork" so to speak.
So I usually go with allowing cannon characters to be "special" in that some house rules don't apply to them. No-one in my group has a problem with it, because no one wants to volunteer and adept all the movie/book/comic into our rules |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | The hardest thing I find with homebrew starts is adapting canon characters to house rules.
That is a lot of "paperwork" so to speak.
So I usually go with allowing cannon characters to be "special" in that some house rules don't apply to them. No-one in my group has a problem with it, because no one wants to volunteer and adept all the movie/book/comic into our rules |
I agree. I've never played a game where the movie heroes and villains make a major appearance (i.e. actually doing anything that required a dice roll). Posting the stats for those characters generally just inspires stat-envy on the behalf of the average munchkin or min-maxer.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Well I think that did answer the question. |
I agree. I explained my POV ad nauseum in the original thread, and have no desire to rehash it. "Logic" aside, we were instructed by the Site Admin to drop it. Apparently that message was not received and understood by all involved parties.
P.S. And no, you don't know what I'm thinking. I posted the emoticon because rolling my eyes is exactly what I did when I read your post. |
It's not like your passive agressive comments in your initial post went over my head, so don't act like I suddenly for no reason brought this up.
So I agree: the message was not received and understood by all involved parties... You.
So my comments about your use of the emoticon went totally over your head then? Well I guess I figured they would
Anyhoo... Like I said, if you would kindly stop talking about this topic, as I have already stated my views on the subject and you've stated... passive agressive comments and a emoticon.
There is really no need for you to try and explain yourself any further.
People who want to rehash this can go read the original posts.
Deal? Or should we go on? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Go away, you troll. I was done with this argument months ago; you're the one bringing it up again. Your snarky remarks are exactly what brought Loc Taal down on you last time, but if you want to keep it up, be my guest.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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MasterKazur
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Go away, you troll. I was done with this argument months ago; you're the one bringing it up again. Your snarky remarks are exactly what brought Loc Taal down on you last time, but if you want to keep it up, be my guest. |
Whats the matter with you? How could you not think I'd take offence to the initial post you posted in this thread? and if you were done with this argument months ago then why even comment on it in the first place??
And "troll" sounds like namecalling to me. Something I've never resorted to, but you're constantly getting a pass on.
I just told you I was done and you call me a troll and throw gasoline on the fire... Do you really not see what you're doing?
And just because you ignore my comments and pass them off as "snarky" without giving them as second though does not mean you're right in this matter. In fact I kinda points to the fact that you know deep inside that you are, in fact, not, right. YOU were the one who brought this up again, so don't act like I attacked you. |
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