Why aren't the NPC conversions done from the SAGA edition?

[GMgreatness]

Hi all! As you can see I am new here on the Forums, and I have a question. First and formost let me thank all those forum members who have contributed so much to the game, even after it has been out of print over a decade. I have really benefited from all the fan fiction and conversions that Gry, Cheshire, and the rest have done. I have been a lurker for years, and have noticed all the hard work and dedication that you guys have done!!. So please don't be offended as I don't mean to be rude or ungrateful, I just hope to better understand the process. So here goes, Why do you guys not convert over NPC character stats like say StarKiller or Juno Eclipse from Force Unleashed in your Saga conversions? Is there a legal reason? Or how about things like the Shadowguard? I see stats for the weapons that they use, but not for the Shadowguard itself. Anyway anyone have some insight for me? Thanks again for all the hard work!
_________________
So...you rolled 9, 6s on 3 dice. How convenient... Let me think about this, Umm Ok, you fail for cheating.

and That is why you fail...

[Forceally]

I think first of all, they'd like to get the foundation materials dealt with. Equipment, vehicles, etc.

Second, consider how rapidly they presented the sourcebooks over the past year or so. They barely have enough time to get one done before the next one comes out.

[cheshire]

Great question. There are a couple of reasons why we haven't done mainline NPCs. First, the likelyhood that someone will need the stats for someone like Bendak Starkiller or Darth Revan are significantly less than someone needing NPCs such as stormtroopers. They just don't appear in game all that often. Weapons, droids, etc, are much more likely to be useful. Second, converting them is hard. Much harder than you'd expect. If we were converting every single NPC that appeared in the books, we'd be no where near caught up. (Right now we're actually hoping to get the Scavenger's guide out sometime before the last book comes out in April.)

Gry has dome some NPCs in some of the latter books, and there's some question as to whether we'll go back and do minor NPCs, such as Sith Troopers and the like. Though I'm not sure there's any plans yet to do major NPCS.

We have, however, done special requests if you need an NPC for a game. We have had a dozen requests or so, and we don't mind trying to plug that into the schedule.

Is there anyone in particular that you're looking for?
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[GMgreatness]

Thanks for answering so quickly, and I understand and agree with where you are coming from. Wotc defianlty has kept the books coming, and there has been a rush over the last year or so. With one more to go, there seems to finally be a break in sight. Mostly I wasn't sure if you guys had an agreement with Wotc that permited vehicles, weapons, species etc, but excluded NPC charaters.

I was thinking about having my PCs run into a Shadowguard or two here in the very near future, as they have been a little overzealous and have been taunting the Emperor of late, and he has caught wind of their operations in the Kira system, and they need a quick reminder of who the real boss of the galaxy is. lol
So if you have stats around here somewhere for them, point me in that direction, if not and it won't take away from the other numerous projects you are working on, I would love some stats, but no particular hurry.

Anyway I really don't have a real need other than seeing how a lot of these newer expanded universe characters stack up to the OT and early expanded Universe characters that WEG was able to cover during their tenure. I would love to see how Darth Bane would compare to Palpy and Vader.

With the new material coming to a slowdown over the next couple of months maybe there will be time for that at a future point.

I wouldnt mind trying it myself, but I can tell it takes a lot of practice and trial and error, to get a feel for what should be what, so I will leave it to you guys the experts to get to if you ever feel like it.

Thanks again for all your passion and dedication to the game!
_________________
So...you rolled 9, 6s on 3 dice. How convenient... Let me think about this, Umm Ok, you fail for cheating.

and That is why you fail...

[cheshire]

We have no agreement with WotC. What we have is essentially tacit consent. They've said nothing about what we're doing, and unless they do say something we intend to continue doing it. Given that Rodney Thompson's website featured conversions from the OCR and RCR for years, I'm guessing that there isn't going to be any sort of problem. It would be pretty hypocritical for him to try to shut our project down (unless LFL forced him to, and I don't see that happening). Our reasons for including no NPCs (with the exception of the Rebellion Era Campaign Guide and Galaxy at War) are all practical. We may go back at some point, but I can't recall exactly what Gry has said about that. He's the one who primarily does the character and droid conversions.

I've looked at a shadow guard before. I don't mind giving it a shot. Their stats are actually kind of wonky as it is, and it might be a few days before you get any results.

In terms of seeing how Bane would stack up with Vader and Palpy, it's funny that you mention that, because I commonly take a look at WEG stat blocks to get a feel for what a balanced character of that type should look like. If you're curious as to how he'd stack up, well... he's probably going to be not terribly dissimilar. Comparison with other characters is pretty necessary. I should post a direct "by the numbers" conversion and you'll see that it's a pretty crappy character. Some stats will be weirdly high, and other stats will be completely absent. After you get a look at other characters that are in someone's range you can adjust things up or down, or you may just do a bit of tweaking here and there.

By the way, how did you hear about the Rancor Pit? You said you've been lurking for a while, and I was just curious how we got your attention.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[Gry Sarth]

Well, Cheshire already explained pretty much everything. NPCs are a pain to convert, so we didn't bother with them in order to get the conversion books actually finished. However, I do see the importance that some of those generic NPCs have, which is why sometimes I took the trouble of converting them. I do intend to eventually go back and do all those generic NPCs, however I have no intention whatsoever of converting "named" NPCs, it's just too much trouble for too little gain.

And concerning the Shadow Guard, you're in luck. I just happen to have some stats for him, which I had been working on:

Shadow Guard
Type: Emperor’s Shadow Guard
DEXTERITY 5D
Blaster 6D+2, blaster: heavy blasters 7D+2, blaster artillery 5D+2, brawling parry 7D, dodge 7D+2, lightsaber pike 7D+2, melee combat 6D+1, melee parry 5D+2
KNOWLEDGE 2D+2
Intimidation 4D, streetwise 4D+2, survival 6D
MECHANICAL 2D
Repulsorlift operation 4D
PERCEPTION 3D+1
Command 6D+1, hide 7D+1, search 7D, sneak 8D
STRENGTH 3D
Brawling 7D, climbing/jumping 6D, lifting 4D, stamina 6D
TECHNICAL 2D
Demolitions 6D, first aid 3D, security 5D
Special Abilities:
Force Skills: Control 4D, sense 3D, Alter 2D
Force Powers:
Control: Accelerate healing, concentration, control pain, enhance attribute, remove fatigue
Sense: Life detection, life sense, sense Force
Control and Sense: Lightsaber combat
Control and Alter: Force weapon
Force Points: 2
Dark Side Points: 7
Character Points: 8
Move: 10
Equipment: Heavy blaster pistol (5D), armor (+2D physical, +1D energy, -1D Dexterity), helmet with UV visor (+3D to Perception and search checks in low-visibility situations), lightsaber pike (5D or STR+1D, +3 bonus to all parry rolls), encrypted long-range holo-comlink, utility belt with medpac.
Source: The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide (pages 174-175)[/b]
_________________
"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[GMgreatness]

WOW!! Now that is what I call a quick return!!! Thanks so much! they will be appearing now much sooner than I had hoped!! It'll get those high flying PCs back in line! (They are Imperials by the way, but have started their own operations, and Palpy isn't pleased)

As far as finding the Rancor Pit goes, about 6 or 7 years ago I was co-Gming a game set during the X-wing Novel era. Our group had been together since the early 90's, and I had been primarily a player with a guest GM appearance once a year or so, until the one of the other primary GMs got married and decided he no longer had time. The group voted and I was invited to take the open GM seat, which I reluctantly did at first because I had a lack of materials and books. But with some help from Ebay and donations, I had around a dozen books and got started. I was in need of a NPC, for an up coming adventure and just didnt have time to flesh one out, so I jumped on the web and searched for D6 Npc characters and found Bishop Darkmore(I believe that was his name) on a webpage called The Rancor Pit. I was excited to see the site and would came back every now and then, but was so busy with school, getting married myself, and free lancing, that I wasn't able to be an active part of the community, and it seems when we were dealing with the Great Bot Crisis, that my old account was inactivated. About the same time, I moved away to another part of the country and lost my gaming group. Upon arrival here I got heavily into the StaR Wars Miniatures game, and have formed a tight knit bunch of friends again. About 6 months ago we felt the Miniatures game was losing its edge and was winding down (which we were right about, it was), but wanted to continue to use the thousands of miniatures we had, so I suggested we start a SW RPG. They all loved the idea but no one wanted to GM, so I volunteered under the agreement that we played the old WEG D6 version,(still the best one by the way). I now have about 40 of the books, and just about every pdf file I can get my hands on. We are 7 sessions into my first Imperial campaign, with 6 or 7 more to go, we then plan on playing a more traditional Rebel/fringer campaign.
_________________
So...you rolled 9, 6s on 3 dice. How convenient... Let me think about this, Umm Ok, you fail for cheating.

and That is why you fail...

[ZzaphodD]

I think Shadow guards are specifically noted for using force lightning, and doing so would mean needing more alter for it to have any effect?

I find the above Shadow Guard quite similar to what I have done (just focused on stats I needed though) but I have higher force skills. Control 5D, Sense 4D, Alter 4D if I remember correctly.

The problem with converting from D20 systems is that the general idea of those system is that PCs should allways at some point become much more powerful than any 'non-specific PC'. Shadow Guards, being 'elite' rank and file quite never reaches a D6 badboy potential.

Edit: Oh, and mine didnt have quite that skill in sneaking, I think it was 5D.

[cheshire]

This is the hard part about doing Imperial Force users. Tremeyne was the high inquisitor and he only had 13D total spread between his Force skills. 9D for a high level mook isn't unreasonable. He should have enough to bring lightsaber combat up and use the pike. Clearly the guy can use the pike on it's own. However, he's going to need some lucky rolls to bring up LSC, but given enough preparation he could probably do it. If anything, I would add no more than five pips to this guys Force powers. Him with 10D+2 doesn't bring him too dangerously close to Tremeyne. If I were to distribute those pips, I'd probably give him another 1D on Control, and the +2 on sense.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.

[atgxtg]

That is a problem with D6.

The way Force Skills work, a character needs a fairly high amount before the powers are reliable enough to be useful. Especially LSC. At 1 or 2D the powers are more of a hindrance.

However the powers quickly grow in utility. At a certain point, LSC becomes so good that such characters can overwhelm other combatants, due to the sheer number of dice they are rolling.

So that gives the GM a rather small "Sweet spot" for designing Force using NPCs to challenge the group.

Err to much in in one direction and the NPC will either have trouble wielding a lightsaber and chewing gum at the same time, or he'll slaughter the PCs.

[ZzaphodD]

Also, depending on what WEG book you are reading, the level of force skills (and other) differ quite a bit. One could say that the general 'power level' of NPCs differ. In one book Boba Fett is the best there is, and in another there are NPCs about his level which are clearly not the 'best of the galaxy' when reading their background. This makes it hard to compare the skill levels of NPCs to use as a kind of 'power level' comparison.

Regarding Tremayne I allways found him a bit weak even without using him as a comparison. In my last campaign he was the main bad guy and I had to boost his force skills a few dice each to make him a challenge.

Edit: Regarding the Shadow Guard, or the Black Guard as they are called in my games, Im comparing it to Galen Marek. A Shadow Guard is quite a challenging foe to Galen, who has put down both Rahm Kota, Kaspan Paratus and Shak Tii... I wont take up Vader here as Im not clear if he let him win or something.. The end result is still that IMO a Shadow Guard should be quite a dangerous foe to most Jedi..

[Esoomian]

[ZzaphodD]