Monty Hall or Out for Blood?

[Jedi AlanRocks]

When I was in high school (circa the late 1980’s) I had a DM who became fascinated with having our party find “artifacts.” One time we raided a pirate ship while it was in port and most of the crew were in town. One of the items recovered was a Talking Sword that had some fantastic bonus (like +10 or something) and I remember being irked. That’s quite a valuable object, not the kind of thing people would sell or leave laying around. It wouldn’t have been so bad but later on in the game we found ANOTHER Talking Sword on a reasonably lightweight NPC. Not to mention Rings of Fire Protection and scrolls of Instant Bad Guy Death were for sale at the local Apothecary. I would later learn that these GM’s are named “Monty Hall” GM’s after the host of Let’s Make a Deal. It really got me to thinking about what kind of treasure you’ll find on monsters and who needs money and who doesn’t. It got me thinking about how much 50K in Gold Pieces might weigh and how badly some people might want to kill anyone who owns a talking sword. As a GM I have become pretty tight fisted about who carries large amounts of cash and fancy jewelry. Certainly no PC is gonna get rich by gunning down Stormtroopers and rifling their pockets. In my universe Stormtroopers carry no cash.

But if you go too far, it also irks players. I once had a beast of burden go crazy in a marketplace and start chasing a PC. He’s running for his life down the street and he says “The entire universe is out to get me!” I have never had a PC “Captain” who owned a ship he was happy with. It couldn’t outrun A wings, it wasn’t as armored as an ISD and could outgun the Death Star. But maybe with enough credits and shop time…

So I am wondering about how you guys GM. Are your players strapped for cash and equipment, have they ever had to blast out of a starport because they can’t afford the docking fee for a week’s stay? What’s the lifespan of your characters? Do you do a lot of fudging… “Well if someone can carry you back to the ship you should live… You’ll be at -2D in everything for a couple of days…maybe a week.” Is everyone in the universe out to ‘get’ your characters?
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For many years West End Games ruled justly until the evil Empire defeated them. The Empire now rules with an iron fist and the d20. There are some who resist and continue to live by the old ways and d6.

[Grimace]

I've gone through some of those stages in the past, but I'm not like that any more. Monty Haul GMs and "Killer" GMs are phases that many (most) GMs go through. Some, depending on how long they've been a GM, might still be in those stages. Unless a GM grows beyond those stages, they could very easily nestle down stick to one stage. Their games will suffer in the long run because of it.

Now some of your questions:
"Are your players strapped for cash or equipment?" - For the most part, yes. By not giving the PCs everything to start with, there are goals for them to strive for that go beyond the immediate adventure. If a PC wants to "pay off their ship so they can upgrade it like they want", it gives them something to look forward to. It gives them something to dream about. If you've got a PC with their ship owned outright, with nice shields, powerful weapons, fast speed and maneuverability, and all the bells and whistles....what is there for them to look forward to? They've got everything to start. So by giving SOME things, but not everything, to starting PCs, you give them incentive that goes beyond "let's track down the Hutt who's holding Bob's wife for ransom" or whatever.

"What's the lifespan of the characters?" - Well, this is generally up to the players. If they continue to act in illogical and dangerous ways that are well beyond the PCs ability to attain, they could have a very short lifespan. If they play smart, use character points and Force points wisely, do daring things when appropriate, and don't think that single handedly taking on an AT-AT with a blaster is a smart thing to do, they will live a lot longer. I would put, these days, the lifespan of a PC at around 20 to 30 game sessions...maybe more. PCs should never be immune from death, or the "death only if it makes sense in the game" that I've heard some GMs say.

"Do you do a lot of fudging?" - No, I don't. GMs that do a lot of this in order to "save" the PCs are falling into another stage...the "Anti-Killer" GM. I've seen GMs pull out the amazing, recurring NPC that shows up just in time to save the PCs and manages to have exactly what is needed to heal everyone back to normal. The old "Deus Ex Machina" syndrome. Fudging, if it happens, should happen rarely, and only if it would be one of those really, really unfortunate times or ridiculously insane occurences... like tripping on a sidewalk, falling into a puddle and knocking yourself out so that you drown in a quarter inch rain puddle. If that happens, it's time to fudge the dice. But if a Star Destroyer starts bombarding a planet and the PCs are silly enough to try to hunker down and hold out against the bombardment, and you roll a strike that's close enough to kill a character, give the PC a chance to resist the damage, and if they fail, make a point of killing that PC. If the players never think that they'll lose a character from bombarding Star Destroyers, they'll never be afraid of doing so and the threat of what such an event is supposed to be will be lost. I think I generally end up fudging a roll about once every 80 to 100 game sessions.

"Is everyone in the universe out to 'get' your characters?" - Absolutely NOT! That's like saying everyone in the world is out to get you right now. Not hardly. Most NPCs in the universe don't even KNOW the PCs. Most couldn't care less about them. Those that do know the PCs will probably range from "likes them" to "doesn't particularly care about them". Only the few that the PCs have really crossed would be "out to get them". Even with the Empire, most of the NPCs aren't out to get them. The Imperial forces are there to enforce the law. If the PCs break the law, then it'll seem like the Imperials are out to get them, but only because they'd done something to raise their ire. The PCs should be, at worst, "neutral" when they start the game when it comes to how people view them. Sure, one or two might have debts owed, but for the most part they're one of probably hundreds or thousands of people that also have debts with that same loan shark. Until the PCs do something to gain attention, either positive or negative, there's absolutely no way the "universe" should be out to get them. Yes, random things like a traffic accident or witnessing a bad robbery might take place, but until the PCs start poking into things, they should have an open book when it comes to how the NPCs interact with them. Not until they've either made a LOT of enemies or a LOT of friends should it be evident that the general "universal" consensus is one way or another towards them.

[Raven Redstar]

I'm somewhere in between. My characters... depending on era and background usually are ok for cash, not rich, but not poor. I tend to believe in a healthy balance of the two. Keep them with just enough cash that they can land and take care of on planet what they need to, don't give them enough to get too good of gear, too quickly.

Now, as for your Stormtroopers don't carry cash... Take for instance, Stormtrooper gear:

Sorosuub Stormtrooper One Blaster Rifle: 1000 cr
Blaster Pistol: 500 cr
Stormtrooper Armor: Not Available for sale
Utility Belt: probably worth at least 100-200 cr
And utility belt comes equipped with at least 2 grenades: 200 cr each

Now, given the time to strip the snowman of his weapons and tactical gear would be able to net the characters a decent bit of cash... also, considering the fact that snowmen don't really tend to travel alone. Small squad possibly 4? 4x that total, not to mention the fact that they could sell the armor for probably at least 3000 a suit, and be more than reasonable for a buyer to want it. So, one squad of stormtroopers comes out to: 20,400 credits approximately, that's also not including bargain rolls or black market mark up. Which for black market can be up to 5 times value. The thing is, if characters realize just how expensively equipped each stormtrooper that is sent at them is, there really is no need for cash shortages, in fact, a smart player can make a decent living off of just killing mook level bad guys.

I've been put in situations with GMs who didn't allow us to accumulate too much wealth, so what I ended up doing is just exchanging my wealth for decent personal gear every chance I got. The one player who tried stockpiling his cash and weapons always got it taken away from him, then we'd spend a session trying to steal it back.

Now, given that your scenario seems to be more D&D oriented. D&D is wholly fantasy, and the GM just probably didn't want any of his players feeling left out. Maybe he liked talking swords, I don't know. But the trick is, make things too easy, your players don't have any fun. Make things too hard, and your players won't have too much fun. I tend to try to find a healthy medium, going a little more toward the tough. My players seem to be happy, and have fun, but I don't play with hard core stat crunchers... if I did, I'd be harder on them.

[garhkal]

[Raven Redstar]

They'd already have a hefty bounty on their heads if they've shot stormtroopers. Besides, we're talking about buying military grade hardware here, I'd at least give my players the base value, I may be a lot of things, but never stingy. If my players are willing to go through the risks of dealing with black market entrepreneurs, then I'll let them get their money's worth.
Keep in mind, that this makes for a whole new level of the role playing if their going to get involved, plus, adds on more crimes to stack on the list for potential bounty hunters pursuing.

[Grimace]

Sorry, giving out that much money for stormtrooper items and stormtrooper armor is tantamount to Monty Haul syndrome. It promotes the "loot the bodies, loot the bodies" mantra that roll players chant by being in games like that too much. Collecting items from dead stormtroopers may be useful to get immediate weapons that might be needed, or it might be the desire of a particular PC who wants to collect items for a character driven reason, but promoting the collection of these items to sell for massive quantities of credits can lead to problems.

And garhkal's got it right...the black market is never going to pay you base cost for things like stormtrooper armor. It's got enough problems...the last thing it needs to do is have stormtrooper armor in stock with the Empire comes knocking. Explaining away weapons is one thing, explaining away stormtrooper armor with blast holes in it is another. And do you really think they're going to have a huge market for armor like that? What buyers out there wants their forces running around in illegal stormtrooper armor? Maybe one or two, but certainly not enough to warrant black markets to always be buying stormtrooper armor.

Black market would ALWAYS buy less than base cost, and then turn around and sell it for a massive mark-up.

[cheshire]

[cheshire]

[Jedi AlanRocks]

Firstly I want to thank everyone who replied. I am really glad to be a member of this forum and hope that I don't come across as an obnoxious n00b. I hope you guys can understand that I have never met a group of experienced SW D6 players before, usually I am the one introducing it to role players who have never done anything but D&D (except for a party of ex-Trek RPG players)

[Raven Redstar]

I do agree that stormies don't carry cash on them, they're soldiers, everything they need is provided. Food, shelter, blasters and ammo. Ya, I could see troopers being caught in their off time shore leave or whatnot, but likely no one is going to know they're stormtroopers. I was talking more from a guns and gear prospective, stormtroopers have some of the best gadgets and gear that you can find in the galaxy. Take the nav system in a scout trooper's helmet, +2D to repulsorlift ops. On their bikes they've got a +5D+2 to their skill, just from maneuverability and nav. Anyway, all I was trying to say, is any merc company, terrorist cell (rebels) would pay some decent money to get their hands on the gear of their opponents, helps when you don't have to shoot 'em up yourself as well.

I've come a long way as a GM. Used to think it was me vs. the players, I've been GMing for nearly 10 years now, and after switching from player to runner, I've come to the conclusion that you need a healthy balance between gifts and challenge. Using an arbitrary rule like half off all re-sales just doesn't make sense to me if you're working outside of the system. Now, if they take it into a retailer that has licensing to sell such items, then yes. Half the sticker price makes sense to me. However, if you're selling to someone outside the confines of the law, part of the price they're paying for is lack of paper trail, avoiding the bureaucracy. In those sorts of scenarios, I would play it by ear, if the player is being totally unreasonable, then the buyer won't buy.

But, I do agree, that unless the armor is repaired, armor that has had someone die in it is usually not worth much, since it's been shot to hell, but clean it up, fix the holes well, and I could see giving full price, especially if the person they're selling to needs it.

Anyway, the thing is, my players don't loot corpses. Most of my games are either military, or jedi. Neither really has much need of money. Looting of corpses happens because of necessity, not because of greed.

[garhkal]

True taht the rebellion would want it, but remember A) they are always strapped for cash, so would be paying less than the black market, and B) if they are members of the rebel alliance, their gear they grabed could be confiscated by the higher ups for the good of the alliance.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Dread Pirate Al]

I'm more than happy with giving PCs 1/2 list price for blackmarket goods as a base price. It makes sense to me. AND I am equally happy with black marketeers charging PCs way over list price.

However the PCs should, IMMOO, have the chance to reverse this.


Looking for a quick sale they are going to take the best that they are offered and the black marketeers know this. PCs should have every chance to use Bargain, Con, Intimidate, Streetwise to get a better offer. And they CAN walk away from negotiations.

Or they can do what the black marketeers who they buy from do. Get a premises, stock it, take the risk of getting busted and sit on the contraband until someone rocks up who will pay what they want to charge.


MOST players I have played with and run for will take the quick sale at knock down price rather than take the (perceived?) risk of the GM having a squad of frosties TAKE their contraband away or change the game to D6 Store Wars.

BUT most people I have played with get very peeved with any sort of economics rule where the game author or GM has clearly stacked the deck against the PCs and justified it with some blarney about realism.



Yarrrrrr

And if yer being charged too much fer yer new gear then there always be the option o' force and theft yarr

[garhkal]

I had one group who did just that. Got tired of paying out what the black market wanted for stuff, so they spent 3 sessions hunting it down and then made a raid. Pity they were not so smart as to cover up who they were OR figure out that the imperals were tailing them. So not only did they get done for owning the contraband, but for stealing it, breaking and entering and armed robbery.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[hisham]

[adamlumina93]

This post and especially raise a lot of good questions. So I am going to throw in my 2 credits for what its worth.

1. Selling on the Black Market - When my PCs go to sell items on the black market they generally only get about 15-20% items cost. I justify this as because you are dealing with someone who knows about local police procedures and may have some on their payroll to assist with searches and the such. That is also why stuff is so much more expensive because BM dealers IMO have to spend a lot of credits making bribes, tying up loose ends, spending it on forgers to make their stuff look legitimate. My players don't complain because "where else are we going to go" they may also get 25% depending on a bargain roll. When they sell things legit they usually get around 30-35% and when they by things used they are usually at aroung 65-75% cost, but as a house rule I do tinker with the stats to reflect a used product. One last note about bying and selling and that is I let the players know once they dice are rolled on one of those checks they are locked into that price and have to pay, if they botch and the number is far less than they expected that just signifies that the other person talked them into it and likewise I will not back out either.

2. About killing players. I don't strive to kill players outright but I won't hesitate doing it. I will remind them about things like CPs that they can add to save their skins but I will not fudge dice to save them. I believe in always saving that 5 cps to add to your resistance roll. If they don't take the warning seriously than they can get what they deserve. I have killed PCs before probably around 7-8 in the 12 years I have been GMing. The game has measures built in to protect them from dying and if they don't take advantage of it, they get what they deserve.

3. About keeping players rich or poor. That kind of depends on the campaign I run, if they are fully behind the rebels then the don't need to carry a bunch of money. If they are freelancers or smugglers than they may have to carry a little more money for emergency ship repairs and such. But they should always remember the old saying about honor amongst theives.