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Players bad choice.. take back??
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:17 pm    Post subject: Players bad choice.. take back?? Reply with quote

Ok lets say you had one session go well, right up to the 'escape' combat near the end of a big mission (or somethign akin to it), and during said combat the player piloting the party ship makes the decision to NOT dodge a shot from a cap ship, due to his or her belief that the scaling diff will make it impossible for the cap ship to hit...

Now you and some of the others on the table have asked him to reconsider several times (or her), and eventually he (or she) flat out calls for the to hit roll to be made. You make the roll in the open so all can see, and Whammo it is a hit. You then pick up the dice to roll for damage, and roll them too, asking for him to make his hull roll to resist...

NOW upon seeing how 'nasty' the hit is, he is balking at making the hull roll and wants to do a piloting roll.


Would you back it up??

For note this is based on a dream i had last night about a game session i was witness too but was not a part of that happened way back in 93 when i was still new to starwars...
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Doomhead
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd roll the hit and NOT let the player take it back... But you don't have to out right destroy the ship and the characters, instead you can use it as an opportunity to introduce a new plot device or other complications. Basically let the players actions speak for themselves but at the same time not to detriment of the game. The could become captured, forced to crash land on a strange planet... so on and such forth!!! Just my two credits worth!
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Gry Sarth
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would certainly not allow the player to retread his decisions in such a case. If he's escaping an attacking capital ship, dodging is what he should be doing, regardless of how he imagined the game mechanics would play out. It seems you even gave him fair warning that it would be smart to dodge just for the heck of it and he insisted in his course of action. So... he chose poorly, and paying the price for it is part of the fun. As said above, you don't have to instantly pulverize the ship, but at least a crash landing and some nasty injuries are called for.

I will only allow "do-overs" in my game if the players decisions were clouded by either miscommunication or sleepiness.
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YodaWI
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One possible option, to add to the captured idea. If you had not specified before hand, you could have easily made it an ion cannon instead of a turbolaser. It would make it pretty easy to be captured, or give them a chance to make some heroic repairs so they can narrowly escape.

I myself would have a hard time punishing the rest of the players for the actions of one individual, especially if they know/knew the right thing to do, but the pilot was too stubborn to concede. Perhaps the other characters all have time to get to an escape pod. It might be fitting if the other characters 'mutiny' against their pilot.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He cannot have it back. There has to be some element of danger. Besides, this is a lesson not to look at game mechanics. As Gry said, if a cap ship is shooting you should be dodging- it's common sense.
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mastereji
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely wouldn't let a player worm their way out of a poor decision like that but i also wouldn't punish the other players for that one players actions. Did you state what weapons were being fired at them? Turbo lasers? Maybe a tractor beam? If it was a tractor beam there ya go, problem solved, they are caught but if it was other weapons i definitely would have their ship severely damaged and/or disabled, then they get boarded or what not. Maybe they could get away in escape pods?

Especially if you are having fun with the campaign it is easy to come up with alternative outcomes for poor player decisions that can spawn new campaign ideas (like others had suggested) or make things really really interesting for your players. Im one of those gamemasters that treads lightly on killing pcs, especially if it is the direct outcome from another player's actions.

Im curious, was imperials? pirates? or another opposing entity? That might also have a great impact on what i would decide would happen to the group.
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ifurin
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm going to have to echo the group consensus and say that the action has been done. especially if warnings and pleadings took place. and i'm all for character death if it's appropriate. but in a situation like this i'd try to come up with something other than a total party kill. at worst the ship is hit and a section explodes and the ship is disabled, and maybe have a character get severely injured. in my games there can be dire consequences for stupidity but i try not to kill the party for it.
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Ankhanu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the same boat. By that sort of point, the player's intention is well established, and there is ample warning of the possible consequences. Going through with a bad plan when the GM (and everyone else) suggests, or outright states, that it's a bad idea means you deal with the consequences.

The only time I might back it up (or simply fudge the result) is if the outcome is vitally important to the story plan... but that's rare, very rare.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'm just adding another dose of I'd do what everyone else does.

If they had not got some information that was vitally important to the decision that they would have had in character (say for instance that the ship was badly damaged and would fall apart if a AT-ST shot it) when making the choice then perhaps, but that would usually be included in the warnings.

And just like everytone else I'd probably look for a result other than total party kill (either by using ions, tractor beams or whatever)
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masque
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd make him roll, and when the hull roll comes up lousy, it's time to suck the pain pipe. The best way I can think of to minimize the damage to the other players is to have the shot take out the engine, most likely with some electrical overload that fries the cockpit, preferably exploding the panel in whichever way hurts the stubborn pilot most, even to the point of death, if necessary.

Ideally I would allow for the uninjured and/or surviving players to repair the controls just enough to crash land somewhere, and pick up the pieces, or possibly, even limp away with some heroic repair skill rolls (Force points being encouraged if necessary. If available escape pods can also be used, of course.

Alternately, if no one else was in cockpit, I'd have the shot shatter the transparisteel, explosively decompressing the pilot and sucking him out the hole, then have a bulkhead slam shut to prevent air from escaping. Send another character out in a space suit to retake the controls and make an emergency landing. Things like that.

A player ignores GM advice at their own peril, and sometimes you have to hammer that point home. Done right, they probably won't do it again.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If he's escaping an attacking capital ship, dodging is what he should be doing, regardless of how he imagined the game mechanics would play out. It seems you even gave him fair warning that it would be smart to dodge just for the heck of it and he insisted in his course of action.


If you read what i posted, this was going on a table near where i was playing battle tech (back at campaign head quarters on little creek blvd in norfolk va)... the gm warned him, and iirc 2 of the 5 other players got on his case about not dodging..

Unfortunatly iirc of the scene set up the gm played it out that the carrack floated into a broadside spectrum so it could bring to bear it's turbolaser batteries. So i see your point (and i personally might have made it ions had i not said ahead of time, or let it be decided by a die roll), but in that case it would not work.

Quote:
Im curious, was imperials? pirates? or another opposing entity? That might also have a great impact on what i would decide would happen to the group.


Imperials. They had just raided and killed the system second in command and were making their escape (after stupidly also hacing into the imps comm system and taunting them)

Quote:
at worst the ship is hit and a section explodes and the ship is disabled, and maybe have a character get severely injured.


From the way the gm was describing it i could easily see him taking it that the turbo battery shot was a called shot AT the cockpit, but without any controlls, it matters not what the rest in the ship did, they would not avoid a crash... escape pods would be their only survival chance...
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PsiberDragon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kinda have to agree w/ Gry & Masque - You roll your dice and take your chances...

I tell my players at the beginning of each game: I will not kill you JUST on bad dice rolls (of course, healing and recouping isn't death - it's a lot more expensive and painful), but STUPIDITY - whether on your part or one of your party member's parts... yeah, you're fair game.

And not dodging when another ship is firing at you, whether same size or not, is as stupid as it gets...

Let everyone know EXACTLY who caused all their characters to die... and have them start all over. That would be punishment enough for the one player, I'd pretty much guarentee it.
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TrueGrit
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

masque wrote:
I'd make him roll, and when the hull roll comes up lousy, it's time to suck the pain pipe.

Certainly I agree with this.

masque wrote:
The best way I can think of to minimize the damage to the other players is to have the shot take out the engine, most likely with some electrical overload that fries the cockpit, preferably exploding the panel in whichever way hurts the stubborn pilot most, even to the point of death, if necessary.

However, this isn't Star Trek - in the Star Wars universe we have circuit breakers and consoles shouldn't fatally explode due to 'power surges'. Razz

masque wrote:
A player ignores GM advice at their own peril, and sometimes you have to hammer that point home. Done right, they probably won't do it again.

Truly stated.

I have to say though that I wouldn't be too worried about the rest of the party being damaged. At the end of the day they are all adventuring together. For example, PCs are in a bar and one of them shoots their mouth off at tough NPCs, while the rest of the party tells the player to back down - he doesn't, and then a fight ensues. Everyone takes damage, not just the PC with the big mouth. If everyone has to take it on the chin for one person's actions then you can be more certain that such mistakes have a much smaller chance of reoccuring.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said. Punishing them all is a time honored tactic of rpgs, whether it is all get captured for one's spurting off the mouth at an imperial (or hutt), or whether it be they all get into a fight cause one tried to be stupid.

Quote:
However, this isn't Star Trek - in the Star Wars universe we have circuit breakers and consoles shouldn't fatally explode due to 'power surges'


That is a good point. In none of the starwars shows/films did any console blow out due to the ship being hit, where as nearly every star trek film had consoles blowing left and right...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No mercy.

He arrogantly trusted to a rules mechanic that he did not fully understand or appreciate. The others begged him to do the right thing, and he didn't. In RL a person would not behave that way - flying straight and level at a cannon. Absurd.
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