Avalanches and cave ins

[garhkal]

Has anyone seen rules for either an avalanch or cave ins? I am thinking of writing a new module where the baddie's lair is UNDER a snow peaked mountain. He would have 2-3 secret escape tunnels as well as his workshops, and the latter would have traps in to cave in the area on those attempting to steal his stuff..

I am wondering what to do if say the party failed to stop him getting out and managed to set off those aforementioned traps causing a large (140 by 100 meter area) cave in.. Or if while outside they use loud weaponry causing an avalanche?
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[ifurin]

i haven't seen anything official (but then i don't have many adventure modules). i'm not too sure about the cave in bit but for the avalanche you could use a difficult terrain check with damage based on speed and modified by the collision chart.

[TrueGrit]

[Grimace]

Having worked in a mine, I can say with more than a fair bit of certainty that a cave in of "140 by 100 meter area" would mean absolute, no chance of changing it, death to the PCs. Unless you provided an alternative way out, there's positively no way to get through that much of a cave in.

The thing that a lot of people tend to forget with a cave in is that its not just stuff "falling to the floor of the cave" that people can crawl over. Usually it's material for a few dozen feet or more ABOVE the area collapsing down into the area. So the "gap" could be 10, 20 or even a hundred feet "up" from the cave in area. It's like when you take the bottom pieces out from a Jenga pile. It's not just the one or two rows above that collapse down into the open space, it's the entire pile of blocks that collapse down. Now pack that into a tunnel and you can see how trying to clear out the rubble by hand is pretty futile. There would be hundreds or thousands of tons of rock in the pile.

So a trap designed to create a cave in is essentially a 100% death trap.

To the rules of a cave in, I've never seen one. The couple of adventures that have caved in areas just says "there they are". It doesn't provide rules for how it happened. The PCs just can't go that way. Period.

I've also never seen any rules concerning avalanches. Considering I also lived in Alaska, I know that avalanches move MUCH quicker than anyone thinks they do. You're not outrunning an avalanche, at least downhill. The only way to get out of the way of an avalanche is to run to the side and hope the avalanche isn't too wide or too fast and catches you before you clear from its path. Avalanches can happen just about any time if the weather conditions are right. Wet snow followed by cold dry snow and winds, followed by more wet snow = ripe avalanche conditions. They can happen from sounds, from winds, from vibration or "just cuz". If you step on the area that's prone for avalanche, it WILL start...no chance of it not happening. If you're below it and it starts, hope you can get out of the way. If you get caught by it, swim! That's what they say to do, is try to swim against the avalance.

Supposedly it's like being in a tumble washer when you're in it, but if you try to swim there's a chance you will "float" closer to the surface. Then, once you start slowing down, you're supposed to try to create a pocket around your head. When the snow settles, it basically cements you in. Unless you can create pockets around your head (to breath for a little bit) and your arms (so you can move them), you're basically stuck in suspended animation, unable to move including expanding your chest to breath. Most people don't die from avalanche injuries, they die from asphixiation. Those that happen to get found by people who happened to see the avalanche usually suffer from hypothermia.

So in eithe case: cave ins or avalanches, its generally a really bad thing. As with a cave in, you're not clearing much in the way of a fair amount of snow anytime before spring, as there's so much of it and its usually filled with lots of debris. So if an avalanche blocks a cave with people in it, chances are the people are in the cave until spring thaw.

If you don't want reality, then basically make believe that cave ins and avalanches are only Difficult obstacles to use strength or dexterity to get past.

[YodaWI]

Thanks for the information. I did not know much about either, other than what you see on TV or movies, which probably isn't always accurate.

I have a feeling I would avoid either situation as a GM, unless maybe my characters are trying to cause a cave in or avalanche. Being stuck in one sounds pretty much like the end of my characters.
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"May the Force Be With You."

[jmanski]

The cave in could be, of course, a way to MAKE the PCs take a particular path.

Or it could be a makeshift prison and the bad guy "rescues" them, right into a real prison.

Or to divide the group- again, there needs to be another way out. A cave in in a smaller shaft in a mine, if there are other tunnels, could only impede one's progress, in theory.

Just some ideas.
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Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect?

[garhkal]

Interesting.

As for the cave in, i was thinking more of it trapping them with enough air pocketing that they can slowly dig their way out but will be wore out, out of food/water, and easier pickings for when he comes back. Perhaps a 40x40 ares is better.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[TrueGrit]

[ifurin]

if the base is under ground then they should have various digging implements on hand in case of cave-ins. they may also have some heavy machinery for digging out new rooms. you could always trap them in a room with some supplies, this should give the players enough to suspend reality and believe their characters could get out.