Starfighter combat

[MA-3PO]

Okay, first of all I know this has probably been covered in another thread but I've spent all morning wading through them and I've found nothing.

My question, what is the quickest, most efficient way to run starfighter combat? I've tried several methods and nothing has the feel I'm looking for, it isn't as fast or cinematic as I'd like it to be. I don't like using grids or counters except the occasional micro machine to show relative position.

I do like the short chase example they give in the R&E rulebook about the freighter evading TIE fighters. The GM knows that TIEs are faster so they will keep up with the freighter as long as they roll decent. The typical "declare your actions and then act" method that works great for melee or blaster fights doesn't work as well in dogfights. For one thing, starfighters are almost always moving and changing positions.

I'd like to expand on the abstract chase method described in the book and possibly incorporate some of the starfighter manuvers described in the Rebel Alliance sourcebook. I would also like to incorporate sensors rolls into combat and use them like perception. When you are in space combat it is much harder to see things with your own eyes and you have to rely on sensors more. I'll have it run something like this:

Beginning of the combat:
1) Pilots roll sensor rolls to determine initiative. This reflects how soon pilots "see" enemy fighters and how soon they are able to react to them. I think this is reflected in the films, especially at Yavin where rebel pilots sometimes didn't see TIEs until the TIE was already on top of them. This will also allow pilots to "cover" thier wingmen. We have Gold 1 and Gold 2 both roll sensors and get 15,9. TIE fighters Alpha 1 and Alpha 2 roll 12,14. Gold 1 got the highest sensors roll and is able to tell Gold 2 "Look out, fighters coming in!". This will allow both Gold 1 & 2 to go first in the round even though Gold 2 rolled lowest.

2) Pilots declare speed and actions. Actions are performed in order of initiative.

3) Resolution. Assuming both fighters survived the round usually one will be in a better position than the other. This step I haven't quite figured out yet and I see two options: a) Pilots who won initiative this round will get a bonus next round, or b) Certain manuevers performed during the actions step has certain effects on the next round. Maybe this is where the manuevers in the Rebel Alliance sourcebook come in?

Any ideas?

[Gry Sarth]

I'm currently writing a very large post regarding Starfighter Combat, though my focus is not so much in speeding up space combat, but making it more exciting, challenging and rich.

I think you're on the right path there. I had also thought about using Sensors as Perception in combat.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[MA-3PO]

[Gry Sarth]

This week, hopefully....
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[Ankhanu]

I personally disagree with using sensors for initiative. From watching the movies and having some basic idea of how fighter pilots operate (VERY basic), I think that there is a very large visual component to space combat, much more so than a sensor role (at least for the fighters)... I would agree on the role of sensors for capital ships and freighters though, but small fighters are very visual with sensors playing long range roles and when targeting begins.

But, the sensors idea might make things more interesting, I'm just not sure it would be "realistic" for small fighters.

I think it was at Yavin we hear "keep up your visual scanning" (sic.) stated as the Rebels approach the battle.

[MA-3PO]

[Ankhanu]

That's true, but also in those games, you only see directly ahead... which I suppose would be the same for TIE styles, but with most of the rebel fighters you have open canopies, and you can look quickly left, right and above; which, you'll notice, the pilots did frequently in the films.

But, like I said, that's neither here nor there, your rule may streamline things or make space combat more interesting. Mechanics don't always reflect what happens outside of game rules... and this mechanic may reflect a non-small fighter type of combat as well.

[Gry Sarth]

"pick up your visual scanning" does not refer to looking around, but to using a sort of video camera to scan the surroundings, according to the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. That too would be included in Sensors. I agree that Sensors play a greater roll than simple vision in aquiring a target. Playing the X-Wing games, i'd say I would practically rely on sensors alone to close in on a target and I would only use the proper outside view to do the actual firing. I'm not sure Sensors should be used for initiative, but it sure sounds like a neat idea. Nevertheless it should be used often for the player to know what's the arrangement of fighters around him. If he rolls poorly, he might have no idea of one of the TIEs closing in on him, and thus would qualify as "suprised" when the attack came, not being allowed a dodge.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[MA-3PO]

[garhkal]

[MA-3PO]

Okay, maybe in retrospect I should have put this thread in houserules but sorry, here it goes:

Dueling Fighters Combat Variant

Some of this should seem familiar to you. I modifed the Dueling Blades rules created by Peter Schweighofer to be used in starfighter dogfights. Just to give Peter due credit, much of these rules are exactly what he wrote.

Each pilot rolls his starfighter piloting+maneuver skill dice. The higher total wins that round. The difference between the two indicates the combat results. In the event of a tie the pilots can roll sensors rolls to determine who sees who first.

Winning Difference/Combat Effect

1-5/Force move

6-10/Outmaneuver: -1D to all rolls next round

11-15/Attack

16+/Trick

The combat result is determined by how much higher one pilot rolls over another. Movement difficulties and failures apply to this roll. Dogfights in open space should not be a problem but beware the dogfighting in an asteroid field. MAPs also applies.

Force move: One pilot's maneuvers and shots are so well placed that the loser must retreat, often in a direction he'd rather not be heading. This is a great way for a more skilled pilot to force a novice one into fighting in an asteroid field or between the girders of an unfinished space station; places where the novice is much more likely to fail his piloting rolls. It could also be used to herd an enemy towards a capital ship's batteries or tractor beam. The GM can determine how many Forced move results this will take.

Outmaneuver: The pilot manages to outmaneuver his opponent causing him to scramble evasively. His opponent suffers from a -1D penalty against all actions for the next round only. The loser can still act, but at significant disadvantage.

Attack: The winning pilot manages to maneuver well enough to place his opponent in his "kill zone". The pilot makes a starship gunnery roll and his opponent can attempt a reflexive dodge or shield roll. If the opponent was Outmaneuvered in the last round he suffers a -1D to this roll in addition to MAPs.

Trick: The winner is such a good pilot that he manages to pull off some kind of trick combat maneuver on the loser. This can be two attacks, a called shot, or disengagment from the dogfight. The winner, with the GMs guidance, can help determine the exact effect.

If the winner disengages then his opponent should be required to roll some starship piloting rolls if he wishes to engage him again. The difficulty could depend on the relative speed difference between the two fighters.

Notes: The winner may always choose a lower option, no matter how high he rolls. A good pilot knows how to produce the desired effect, whether to herd his opponent into a particular area or outright damage or destroy him.

Example: X-wing Red 1 rolls a 28 against Assault Gunboat Alpha's score of 15. Red 1 could attack Alpha according to the rules. However, Red 1 wants to toy with this gunboat a bit more. Red 1 heads off Alpha and forces him to turn towards and into the range of a corvette's turbolasers. Red 1 could also "Outmaneuver" him, lowering his roll next round by -1D. (This could be especially useful next round if Red 1 is trying to get a higher score to execute a combat-related maneuver with the "Trick" result.)

[Liam (Gunman) Kissane]

Cool

[Gry Sarth]

Hey, anyone here ever used the "Star Warriors Starfighter Combat Boardgame" by WEG to run their RPG battles?

I was taking a quick look at the book, and it doesn't look half bad... I don't know if I should bother giving it a try. I find it a bit risky that it can completely reduce a roleplaying combat to a simple boardgame, but the added control and realism might be worth the risk, if you make a conscious effort to keep bringing the roleplaying aspects into it. And I suppose it was designed to work reasonably well with the RPG.

So, anyone has any opinions on it?

PS: I was also pleasantly surprised by how clever the "Starfighter Battle Book" is, though I don't think that can be used effectively in an RPG session.
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"He's Gry Sarth, of course he has the stats for them."

[jmanski]

Yeah, tried Star Warriors. It's just too slow for our taste. Too clunky and rules intensive. Besides which its 2 dimensional, and I am looking for something 3 dimensional.
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[Darth Mischevious]

Hi Gry,

Conversely, we used Star Warriors extensively in our group and loved it! However my original Star Wars group liked to use miniatures and fairly detailed tactical situations, so Star Warriors fitted in well for them.

We even played out an engagement between a Star Destroyer and its entire fighter complement versus planetary defence fighters and the PC's stock light freighter - using the wing rules from Star Warriors so the TIEs operated in groups of four.

The interface with the RPG actually improves the Star Warriors game too in my opinion. It remains one of the best merges of roleplaying and board gaming because it handles the basic handling characteristics of the starfighters as well as the RPG skills system enabling a pilot to push the performance and get the very best out of their ship if they are good enough. Not many games manage that.

However, when using it just as a boardgame, there can be a tendency to sacrifice one or two fighters to draw the enemy into position. Once it is linked to the RPG, people get more concerned about not losing their character pilots and don't use silly suicidal approaches to positioning their ships.

The one issue we did run into when using Star Warriors with the RPG is that it works best if everyone has a part to play in the space battle. If the PC party has characters who cannot pilot or operate guns etc, then those players can become bored. One of our ways around this in larger battles was to have every player operate a few of the extra fighters. In small combats though, it could be a problem if there weren't meaningful roles for everyone. Not sure that it is all that different when using the RPG game resolution either though - anyone without space skills can still get bored.