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Eiren
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 169
Location: Michigan
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 Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Official Rules on Evading Attacks |
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Since it was a hot topic in the gladiator thread I figured I'd start a post here about it.
The discussion is about it being reasonable that one evasion roll (a parry, a dodge) can be counted towards allincoming attacks of one type (ranged, melee, brawling) in one round and the PC can still attack back with only one die of MAP applied.
There have been good discussion on it so far and good arguments for and against it.
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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As mentioned, that's what the R&E rule is, one Brawling Parry/Melee Parry counts for all incoming Brawl and Melee attacks (which is rolled depends on whether you have a weapon or not), and one dodge for all incoming ranged attacks.
Now, I do think that the ranged attack part makes sense, but not so much the Brawling Parry/Melee Parry bit. People are generally shooting for where you are, and you're moving from that spot... one dodge. However, with melee/brawl, tends to be a little more specific in blocking/evading a specific attack at a time... so I don't really think that a single roll for all incoming attacks makes a lot of sense. Classically in my table top games, since R&E came out, we used a single dodge and multiple parries. With 2E, we used multiple dodges and multiple parries.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I favour the single dodge multi-parry way of doing things as it seems more 'real' in my mind.
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Darth Ginzain
Lieutenant
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| In first edition one of the problems with multiple defensive rolls I found was characters would exploit the system using very high attack dice. I had one @$$ that would put everything into blaster. No other skill he thought was needed. Other players and driods would handle the rest. When combat started he would make the maximum number of attacks. At one point he had 8d in blaster and at short range or less he'd make 7 attacks with 2d each. Now his thoery was the defender would have to have 8d dodge in order to defend against all of his attacks. Which often wasn't the case. A typical 5d dodge would allow 3 attacks to be undodged. So he'd have to roll 6-10 on 2d in order to hit. But with 3 attacks he'd hit at least hit once. I was very happy to see the single defensive roll and the combine action roll. Then a squad of stormtroopers weren't a laughing stock. |
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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I understand the official rules as written, however I tend to deal with it on a case-by-case basis. If you're dodging, then it usually can be used against all ranged attacks that round, since you're basically leaving the spot where everyone had targeted you. Now, with parries, it's always so. If you're blocking an attack, then it makes no sense for a single parry to work for all attacks that round. If you're surrounded by attackers, you'll have to move all over the place to block all the attacks, thus, multiple parries. Now, parrying can also translate to basically "dodging the blade", and sometimes that can work for more than one attack directed at you.
Bottom line is, be reasonable. If it looks like a single action can handle it, make it last the entire round. Otherwise, do it for each attack.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14168
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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For me, it is one roll for dodge, one for melee/brawl.
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noctum_carpe
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Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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Location: Lidköping, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Well my group uses one dodge and multiple parries and we think it works fine. But everyone to his own.
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Eiren
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 169
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Ginzain wrote: | | When combat started he would make the maximum number of attacks. At one point he had 8d in blaster and at short range or less he'd make 7 attacks with 2d each. |
This happened in our old group as well. We just limited the number of shots a weapon can fire in one round. I *think* we all agreed on 4 or so.
My biggest beef with it is probably more of an extreme situation though like the examples I gave earlier where someone was facing MANY attacks in one round. There's just no way I can wrap my mind around someone rolling once to dodge a hail of incoming fire (i.e. we'll say 20 blaster shots), and then firing back with only one MAP applied.
A friend of mine had an idea for dodge that he ran in his group, I'll have to see how he handled it and maybe post that here later.
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noctum_carpe
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Eiren wrote: | | Darth Ginzain wrote: | | When combat started he would make the maximum number of attacks. At one point he had 8d in blaster and at short range or less he'd make 7 attacks with 2d each. |
This happened in our old group as well. We just limited the number of shots a weapon can fire in one round. I *think* we all agreed on 4 or so.
My biggest beef with it is probably more of an extreme situation though like the examples I gave earlier where someone was facing MANY attacks in one round. There's just no way I can wrap my mind around someone rolling once to dodge a hail of incoming fire (i.e. we'll say 20 blaster shots), and then firing back with only one MAP applied.
A friend of mine had an idea for dodge that he ran in his group, I'll have to see how he handled it and maybe post that here later. |
Even given that situation, a single shot isn't going to be much benefit; even if they hit and and take down one opponent, that leaves 19 chances to be hit next round. Chances are, someone's hitting them. Chances are one of the original 20 is going to roll above their dodge in the first place.
In the end, that sort of situation usually ends in the PC getting hit, at least once.
Don't forget about adding modifiers to the difficulty. This is an aspect of difficulties that people seem to forget about unless there's specific modifiers applied in the book. If you think the difficulty for a shot should be increased due to circumstance, simply increase the difficulty. Yeah, there might only be 1 MAP, but the modifier will probably mean that they can't make the shot anyway.
I do like limiting the number of shots that can be fired to a maximum. 4 shots in 5 seconds is not unreasonable... even kinda unlikely if they want to aim the shots too 
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Darth Ginzain
Lieutenant
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Keep in mind that dodging and parrying isn't really a single action, but rather a series of movements designed to present the smallest area attack. Also a single action parry or dodge only replaces the base difficulty so unless the skill is extremely high it's not really worth it to dodge 5 times in a round taking 4 MAPs. You'd prolly be better off attacking your opponents before they fired. |
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ifurin
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Eiren wrote: |
My biggest beef with it is probably more of an extreme situation though like the examples I gave earlier where someone was facing MANY attacks in one round. There's just no way I can wrap my mind around someone rolling once to dodge a hail of incoming fire (i.e. we'll say 20 blaster shots), and then firing back with only one MAP applied.
A friend of mine had an idea for dodge that he ran in his group, I'll have to see how he handled it and maybe post that here later. |
in my games when it was multiple enemies vs. my players i just used the combined fire rules (especially if they were imperials). it seemed logical that they were trained to work together so they would fire together. plus it required fewer rolls on my part. |
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Eiren
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 169
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Eiren wrote: | | A friend of mine had an idea for dodge that he ran in his group, I'll have to see how he handled it and maybe post that here later. |
I talked to my old GM last night on the phone for a bit. Now we didn't have long to talk and so I didn't get the kind of detail I wanted on his oldhouse rules (plus it has been a long time since he ran a SW game) but this was the basic gist of what he said:
(I'm not sure if I like his method or not, but I may try it out and see how it works. I'm also unsure about how accurate he is on his take on the official rules since he hasn't played in so long so if his thinkign is incorrect, by all means feel free to correct me/him.)
First of all, he despised declaring actions in the order that the game allows you to. An example he gave was 4 pirates and 4 pc's are in a fight. The pirates declare first. 2 of them do full dodges, one of them does a combat dodge and fires one shot, one of them fires 3 shots. NOW the pc's get to declare actions. 3 of them fire on the one who is firing 3 shots specifically because he is not dodging and they know it, (the 4th pc is irrelevant, I see the point he is making).
He ran his combat roughly as follows (we'll assume a 2 NPC on 2 PC fight, all combat skills at 6D):
1. roll initiative
2. Initiative order goes PC1 NPC1 NPC2 PC2
3. PC1 declares his actions, he takes three shots at NPC1.
4. He rolls 4D for all three shots on NPC1.
5. NPC1 rolls 6D to dodge the first shot, 5D for the second, and 4D for the third.
6. (PC1 and NPC1 have each taken 3 actions so far)
7. NPC1 fires 2 shots back at PC1. He rolls 2D for each shot.
8. PC1 rolls 3D to dodge the first shot and 2D to dodge the second.
9. NPC2 fires 2 shots at PC1. He rolls 5D for both shots.
10. PC1 rolls 1D to dodge the first and cannot dodge the second.
I think that is prolly enough to see how his system worked. MAP's were cumulative throughout the round of combat and were based on the actions declared "so far" throughout the round.
This is a totally alien concept to me, but I see some merit in it (just not sure how much, lol). I also see what appear to be some gaping flaws.
He did specify that a situation like we mentioned before where someone would dive behind cover would in essence remove them from being shot at further until they poked their little head out again.
I must admit, I am not a huge fan of the declaring actions idea either, but I'm not sure if this is the best way around it.
Any thoughts on his system? I'm sure there will be a ton of criticism on it, and I'd like to hear it to be honest. If I decide to come up with my own house rule system, I wanna know what yalls thoughts on this stuff is as yall have some valuable input.
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vong
Jedi
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 6699
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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heh, you should have put this topic in House Rules.
The official rules state that you can dodge multiple attacks. Thats it thats all
But no one uses them
But i do like the system, cumulative -1D to dodging, works out great 
another bonus to make sure you shoot first and dodge later
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, we've used cumulative MAPs in the past as well. Personally, I don't like it and don't think its reflective of the increased difficulty to all actions that is created by trying to do many things at once.
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