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vong
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: Yuuzhan Vong and Light Saber Combat |
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I have a passage from Vector prime, of a fight of Mara and a Vong. This is taken directly from the book, [...] indicates irrelevant passage removed. My question/opinion is below, so you are not influenced in your original assessment. As well, I do not believe this to be a spoiler, as the outcome of the fight is never reached, and nothing more then the battle is given.
| Vector Prime, page 253 to 256 wrote: | The two stood and stared for a long while, neither blinking, the test of wills before the inevitable battle. [...] Mara reached for her lightsaber but, recalling her weakened state, drew her blaster instead and had it leveled the warrior's way before he turned back to face her.
[...]
"Do not mock me!" Yomin Carr roared, and he pulled another thud bug from his bandolier and let it fly at Mara.
She took a shot at it, but it dodged, and then she had to dive aside, once and then again as it swooped around. It started to loop for a third pass, but this time, she got her aim and blew it out of the air.
Yomin Carr continued to laugh.
Mara turned her blaster on him. "I think you'll be coming with me," she said.
He laughed louder and started to reach for his bandolier.
"Don't make me," she warned raising the blaster threateningly.
He just laughed and continued, and she shot him. But the magnificent, plated armor turned the blast aside.
Eyes wide with disbelief, Mara had to move again, and quickly, as Yomin Carr tossed out another thud bug, and another, and another. She wisely abandoned her blaster, tossing it aside and drawing out her lightsaber. Then she went into a frantic dance, twisting and parrying, lightsaber intercepting the darting thud bugs as they came at her in rapid succession.
Yomin Carr's laugh turned into a growl as he nearly emptied his bandolier, a dozen thud bugs darting and spinning at Mara.
Her glowing blade worked in a furious, humming blur, whipping up high and to the side, down low and when she couldn't catch up to that low-flying missile, she deftly hopped it - and then back up connecting with one zooming creature barely a centimeter from her face. She turned about and slice across, picking two out of the air, then dropped into a squat, the lightsaber flashing up above her head to take out a diving bug, then swishing down to the side, forcing another to alter its course. I tried to turn about, but had too much momentum and smashed into the back wall, crashing in deep.
Mara spun about to face Yomin Carr, dived into a forward roll to regain her balance and to avoid any forthcoming attacks. Her lightsaber was at the ready as she came up, but the next missal plopped down - harmlessly, Mara believed - a couple of meters in front of her.
The armored warrior leapt forward, landing perched on the railing in front of the woman. She started forward to meet his charge, lightsaber working against the movements of his staff.
The gooey pie on the floor before her expanded suddenly and grabbed at her feet. Quick as any felinoid, sensing the movement, Mara launched herself into a back flip, and then another.
But the goo spread to pace her and caught her by the feet, rushing to encompass her ankles and hold her fast. Yomin Carr howled in apparent victory.
Mara's lightsaber swished down, cutting through the goo easily, separating it into two parts, but each of those parts continued to move, grabbing stubbornly.
"You'll not defeat it," Yomin Carr promised, and indeed, each passing moment and each passing movement brought both the jellies up higher on her legs, trapping her even more.
[...]
The goo grabbed at Mara, but despair surely did not. She kept her head and her cool, and moved he lightsaber through a wild blur of motion, slashing, cutting, the tip even brushing against her pants le as she sliced the gel from her body. On and on she went, seemingly wild but actually precise - s much so that she soon had the goo chopped up into little pieces - and she still kept the presence o mind to arch her blade back out in front to intercept yet another thud bug zooming for her.
The warrior came on, staff sweeping down, and Mara ducked at the last moment, came up tall, and sent her lightsaber up high with a rolling motion that kept the staff out wide.
Yomin Carr dropped to one knee and brought his staff horizontally above him, hands out wide, to intercept.
Mara fully expected that her powerful lightsaber would shear through the staff and end the fight abruptly, but amazingly, the tattooed warrior's weapon caught the lightsaber, accepting the brunt o the hit without apparent damage, and Yomin Carr twisted his hands to the side as he came up fast throwing Mara's blade off aim.
She should have stepped back to regroup, but the jelly, the many tiny jellies, still held one of her feet firmly, and she could only twist back so far, and not far enough for her to bring her lightsaber in t parry.
Yomin Carr stabbed with the snake-head end of his weapon, and to Mara's horror, that head opened wide its maw, fangs dripping venom. She slapped her hand inside the angle of the blow, against the shaft just below the head, and was quick enough to retract it as the snake head turned in to bite at it.
The lightsaber's glowing blade swooped in an up-turning circular parry between the two, forcing Yomin Carr back, and with that moment of pause, Mara slashed it down beside her foot again cutting in half the last piece of jelly large enough to hold her. Then she leapt back, though not far - it was as if she had wads of gum stuck to the bottoms of her feet.
"You are worthy," Yomin Carr congratulated, and started to nod and used the ruse to swing about quickly, his staff elongating and becoming supple suddenly, more a whip than a bludgeoning weapon.
Mara tried to leap back, but the jelly, still grabbing at her, slowed her down. She pivoted to the side bringing her weapon out to intercept.
The whip snapped around the lightsaber, a strike so perfectly aimed that the head still came it across the woman's arm, fangs cutting deep scratches.
Yomin Carr howled in victory, but Mara took the burning hit, focused her energies suddenly on the part of her body, and forced a blood rush out of the wound, washing away the poison before it could begin to take hold. She accepted then that this opponent possessed weapons that she could not anticipate, and so she went on the offensive immediately, charging ahead and launching a series o thrusts and slices that had Yomin Carr backing, and all the while, he tried to retract his weapon t staff form, to give him something with which to parry.
But his retreat was short-lived. He flicked one hand in a reverse movement, sending the remaining length of whip, ending in that wicked snake head, back out at her.
She dropped her left knee down and back, pivoting away from the warrior, and brought he lightsaber in a rolling motion down and then stabbing back over her dipping left shoulder, a perfect angle to intercept the rushing snake head, the tip of her blade diving into its opening mouth. She came up in a rush, arm pumping and slashing, tearing the snake head apart, and then she bore on, right up t the large warrior.
His backhand got inside her movement, though, the other, hard end of his weapon smacking him across the shoulder and knocking her to the side. She rolled with it, accepting the blow, and spun down low, swiping across at his knees.
He leapt above the cut, and then again as Mara came across with a backhand, and then brought hi weapon, now fully a staff again, down at her seemingly exposed head. Mara turned and brought he elbows flying up, her lightsaber coming across horizontally to intercept and hold the weapon at bay.
Yomin Carr did not relent, pushing down with all his strength - frightening strength to Mara for indeed, she, even with all of her inner power and determination, could not hold him up. She reached into the Force then, trying another tactic on the man, and then she nearly buckled, for there was ... nothing.
That was the only way she could describe it. Nothing. It was as if the Force was not a part of this warrior, as if he refused to acknowledge its existence in such a profound manner that it did not exist for him.
Mara had to rely strictly on her fighting skills, pitting her speed and precision against this opponent' brute force. With a sudden, desperate twist, rolling her left hand over her right, she snapped the descending staff harmlessly down |
Now from what is here, it would seem that a force user would get no sense roll added to his Lightsaber skill, but when deflecting thud bugs, they would. I am also not positive if they would be allowed to add Control to damage to be honest, as it says in their description:
| Gry's Alien Stats wrote: | | Force Immunity: Yuuzahn Vong are immune to all Force powers that involve Sense or Alter. |
Now, I Think that a user can add control as well, but am not sure. This also leads me to believe that they would not trigger Danger Sense either...
Opinions are always welcome.
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Esoomian
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Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Yuuzhan Vong and Light Saber Combat |
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| vong wrote: | I have a passage from Vector prime, of a fight of Mara and a Vong. This is taken directly from the book, [...] indicates irrelevant passage removed. My question/opinion is below, so you are not influenced in your original assessment. As well, I do not believe this to be a spoiler, as the outcome of the fight is never reached, and nothing more then the battle is given.
| Vector Prime, page 253 to 256 wrote: | That was the only way she could describe it. Nothing. It was as if the Force was not a part of this warrior, as if he refused to acknowledge its existence in such a profound manner that it did not exist for him.
Mara had to rely strictly on her fighting skills, pitting her speed and precision against this opponent' brute force. With a sudden, desperate twist, rolling her left hand over her right, she snapped the descending staff harmlessly down |
Now from what is here, it would seem that a force user would get no sense roll added to his Lightsaber skill, but when deflecting thud bugs, they would. I am also not positive if they would be allowed to add Control to damage to be honest, as it says in their description:
| Gry's Alien Stats wrote: | | Force Immunity: Yuuzahn Vong are immune to all Force powers that involve Sense or Alter. |
Now, I Think that a user can add control as well, but am not sure. This also leads me to believe that they would not trigger Danger Sense either...
Opinions are always welcome. |
I'd at least give them half the bonus for sense which would come from being aware of the surroundings, air currents moving, heightened state of awareness etc...
As for danger sense I'd be going case by case. The individual vong may not exist in the force but if their weaponry does then even the ampistaffs would trigger danger sense.
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Orgaloth
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Yuuzhan Vong and Light Saber Combat |
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| vong wrote: | I have a passage from Vector prime, of a fight of Mara and a Vong. This is taken directly from the book, [...] indicates irrelevant passage removed. My question/opinion is below, so you are not influenced in your original assessment. As well, I do not believe this to be a spoiler, as the outcome of the fight is never reached, and nothing more then the battle is given.
| Vector Prime, page 253 to 256 wrote: |
Yomin Carr did not relent, pushing down with all his strength - frightening strength to Mara for indeed, she, even with all of her inner power and determination, could not hold him up. She reached into the Force then, trying another tactic on the man, and then she nearly buckled, for there was ... nothing.
That was the only way she could describe it. Nothing. It was as if the Force was not a part of this warrior, as if he refused to acknowledge its existence in such a profound manner that it did not exist for him.
Mara had to rely strictly on her fighting skills, pitting her speed and precision against this opponent' brute force. With a sudden, desperate twist, rolling her left hand over her right, she snapped the descending staff harmlessly down |
Now from what is here, it would seem that a force user would get no sense roll added to his Lightsaber skill, but when deflecting thud bugs, they would. I am also not positive if they would be allowed to add Control to damage to be honest, as it says in their description: |
Now my reading is that she had no problems with her lightsabre combat, ir was when she went to do something else with the force that she found nothing. But there is also nothing in there that states that she activated lightsabre combat, but also there never seems to be in the novels.
Looking at the description for Lightsabre combat, it doesn't say why Sense is used, except in aiding to hit a target.
| Gry's Alien Stats wrote: | | Force Immunity: Yuuzahn Vong are immune to all Force powers that involve Sense or Alter. |
| vong wrote: | | Now, I Think that a user can add control as well, but am not sure. This also leads me to believe that they would not trigger Danger Sense either... |
The thud bugs and amphistaff would set off the Danger sense. I can also see where the Sense part can be omitted for the Lightsabre combat.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
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To me, it seems that they are simply blank when trying to sense them with the Force, as such, the Sense portion of LSC, when fighting the Vong would be eliminated; however, it seems like she had no issues with the Force guiding her to take out the thud bugs... so, no Sense versus the Vong, Sense versus the trajectory of thud bugs and the like. I wouldn't give them sense versus the amphistaff.
Danger Sense probably wouldn't function either. I *think* I recall Luke et al. being surprised by the Vong on a few occasions, not being able to sense their presence, they weren't warned of the incoming danger. Again, it might function on incoming missiles like thud bugs or something though.
As for the Control aspect of LSC, I would say it functions normally, as it involves the flow of the Force through the character and saber, not the opponent. I haven't noticed any text suggesting that sabers are any less effective than normal against Vong, just that their armour/equipment is resistant (hence the high armor rating versus energy).
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ifurin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| i'd have to agree with everyone here. the yuuzahn vong are completely cut off from the force. they cant use it or be effected by it. so sense and alter powers would be useless on them. but it seams that their weapons can be affected by them, at least i haven't read any sources (official or otherwise) that says otherwise. but i don't see any reason that control powers shouldn't work since control affects the jedi themselves. |
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vong
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ifurin"]i'd have to agree with everyone here. the yuuzahn vong are completely cut off from the force. they cant use it or be effected by it. so sense and alter powers would be useless on them. but it seams that their weapons can be affected by them, at least i haven't read any sources (official or otherwise) that says otherwise. but i don't see any reason that control powers shouldn't work since control affects the jedi themselves.[/quote}
But is the sense aspect of LCS the wielder of the weapon, or the weapon itself.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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It affects the wielder, not the weapon... but is based on the flow of the Force through the environment around the Jedi... as the Vong don't interact with the Force, they're invisible, hence the Sense aspect doesn't operate with them.
Remember that there aren't three Force skills narratively, there is just the Force, Control, Sense and Alter are just game mechanics. With Lightsaber Combat, the Force is still flowing about the Jedi, there's just a blank spot in their ability to sense the Vong, but the Force is still flowing through them, granting the Control aspect.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'd still be inclined to grant some aspect of the sense bonus because the (and this is just how I assume the LSC works) can now feel with his lightsaber, it becomes an extension of his body rather than a senseless lump of metal clasped in an appendage.
Even if the Vong themselves are invisible that's got to be worth something.
Also aren't droids invisible/non-entities in the force? If so doesn't that mean that the sense portion of LSC would suffer a similar penalty against droids?
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vong
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | I'd still be inclined to grant some aspect of the sense bonus because the (and this is just how I assume the LSC works) can now feel with his lightsaber, it becomes an extension of his body rather than a senseless lump of metal clasped in an appendage.
Even if the Vong themselves are invisible that's got to be worth something.
Also aren't droids invisible/non-entities in the force? If so doesn't that mean that the sense portion of LSC would suffer a similar penalty against droids? |
Droids exist in the force, they just arent part of the living force.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| vong wrote: | | Droids exist in the force, they just arent part of the living force. |
But can you sense them with sense powers?
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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With some sense powers, yeah.
And I would disagree that the Jedi can "feel with his lightsaber"; the lightsaber is just a tool, it has no sensing capability, all the sensing is being done by the Jedi, the lightsaber is incidental, other than being a superb focal point for the Jedi's mind. The lightsaber has almost nothing to do with it; the narrative suggests this, but the game mechanics and written power descriptions, however, don't. The ability to use Sense to augment your attack/defense rolls for any form of combat would be sensible, based on the movies, comics and novels, and the addition or subtraction of Control to damage should, theoretically, apply to any hand held weapon (or the appendage itself for Brawling). Parrying blaster bolts should be something that only applies to lightsabers (or specific other weapons, such as those electrostaffs Greivous' guards had).
But, this isn't how the game is designed, for whatever reason... probably to maintain/enhance the mystique of the lightsaber and build upon that mythos.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmm I'd assumed that with the sense aspect of LSC a Jedi wraps his lightsaber's blade in a cocoon of force energy allowing him to extend his perception to cover the entire length of the lightsaber. This is why I thought it could only be done with lightsabers which are usually created using the force so they are 'attuned weapons'
If this is not the case and the sense bonus is based on feeling and predicting and opponent's movements then the bonus would be totally negated by the Vong.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | ... the sense bonus is based on feeling and predicting and opponent's movements ... |
This is the impression I've picked up from what I've seen/read outside of the rpg's written material.
For example, in Darth Bane (the most recent book I've read  ), it describes the Sith training with practice sabers, which were basically blunted swords weighted to feel like a lightsaber, not actual lighsabers in the least, and described the students learning to stretch out with the Force to anticipate their opponents movements. If it were inherent in the lightsaber itself, this sort of training would never work, as they'd never be able to extend their senses without the energy blade. There are other, similar examples in other books' narratives.
They often describe the Jedi/Sith using the same techniques in hand to hand and melee combat situations, and in using the Force to guide their aim with ranged weapons, or augment the path of thrown weapons to hit accurately. These aspects of Force narrative don't see much in the way of official RPG Force Power material though.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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My ideas come from a combination of the books I have read and the game mechanics. Based on the fact that some things (blaster bolts, droids, falling rocks etc...) lacked intent and sapience (in the traditional biological sense for droids at least) that the power must stem from the Jedi's connection to his own saber.
I bow to your superior knowledge of the EU material 
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TheCrazyDuro
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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in my opinion, one should be able to sense Vong using the force... Just differently.
See a way to sense Vong in the force is not to sense them, but sense everything else. Sense the aura of the force in an area, then find the hole where there is nothing. Basically you want to find something black (vong) in the snow(the force), so you look for black. You can't find it, so maybe you should look where there isn't White(the force). Effectively using the force to look for the places where the force isn't by using it in those areas.
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