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Reyus Graven
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Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: Anacortes, Wa
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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: Capitol Ships and handling many weapons. |
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Ive noticed on the imperial star destroyers and many of the larger capitol ships can easily have hundreds of guns in diffrent arcs. I have read the rules and I can't find anything on how to handle that amount of guns.
Like if an X-wing was flying close to the star destroyer and a number of guns honed in on the darting x-wing. Is there rules anywhere on how many guns in what arc and fire? If anything I would rule by thumb that only so many guns would shoot at an X-wing on a turn. lastly say to capitol ships are firing at eachother. How do you break up the dice so you don't have to roll all the to hits of a capitol ship.
I'm thinking I might run sort of an enterprise style starwars game. With the PC's playing various officers aboard a capitol ship. Be an interesting and much more tactical way for pc's to interact with space.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi
Joined: 25 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I don't have much time to elaborate. But I think the answer here is:
Combined actions.
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Gry Sarth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: |
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...but it seems I do have time to double post... 
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Last edited by Gry Sarth on Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vong
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I also thought there was some mass combat rules.. these would probably apply as well.
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Reyus Graven
Ensign
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Its Ok |
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| Gry Sarth wrote: | | ...but it seems I do have time to double post... |
You can double post and not have time to write a detailed, longwinded post on spaceship combat, what kind of dedicated Starwars fan are you.  j/k
Yeah I was looking at the rules for combined fire. That might work with a little modification. It seems like you can only combine fire with a team up to your perception or command skill in Dice. When firing at small ships 5 to 8 guns in a firing arc on any given round might make sense at least to hit. The real trouble is when a capitol ship brings its guns to bear on another capitol ship. with a star destroyer having atleast 20 guns in its firing arcs. Course I suppose if you broke it down into teams then you could say it has 3 combined shots with its gun command crews focusing fire.
Once i figure out how to do the real big ships. Imperial superstar destroyer's without bogging down the game then i think I may be set. Then it comes down to what ship do I want the characters to start on in command of and which side do they want to be on. Imperial or Rebel.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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it also says in the revised book that personnel who are well trained and skilled (such as bridge gunnery officers and their crews) can go Beyond that number.
Also for cap ships i usually see it working like
CO orders all port batteries fire at X. He commands his (lets say) 7 port gunnery officers. 5 of them each command the 6 gun battery officers, which in turn they command their respective batteries.
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Reyus Graven
Ensign
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | it also says in the revised book that personnel who are well trained and skilled (such as bridge gunnery officers and their crews) can go Beyond that number.
Also for cap ships i usually see it working like
CO orders all port batteries fire at X. He commands his (lets say) 7 port gunnery officers. 5 of them each command the 6 gun battery officers, which in turn they command their respective batteries. |
Yeah that way you could break it up a little into less shots. God knows I don't want to roll for 20 guns let alone 100 like some of the big capitols have.
In most cases vs fighters I'm thinking that mostly about 4 to 8 guns max would be able to combine on it. As it is moving so fast and close to ship it would be hard to target it with more. For capitol ships I would have to break it down to 2 or 3 rolls at best. Sad thing is you couldn't just consider it one combined fire roll with 20 guns thats a 6D+2 bonus to damage or to hit with. so you get a ship that has turbolasers at 5D. Then you hit that ship with a 11D+2 strength attack. A superstar destroyers 100 guns would translate into 10D with another 33D+1 to add to hit and damage. I guess its suppose to be big and scary but what would survive that more the a single turn.
If I did fire groups of 6 to 8 depending on the size of the ship that would make a star destroyer fire about 3 times and a super star destroyer fire about 12 times. Still many dice rolls but certainly less brutal.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Plus then you add in the 6d scaling difference between fighter and cap ship..
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Matthias777
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Location: North Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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If all the batteries in one fire arc are shooting at a starfighter, why can't they roll together? The following info is off the top of my head, so forgive me if I'm remembering the stats wrong. An ISD-I Star Destroyer gunner has 4D+2 skill and the turbolasers have 4D fire control, giving him an 8D+2 base to hit with. Let's say the CO orders all port batteries to fire on this lone X-wing. So that's 20 batteries combining for a 6D+2 bonus to allocate in damage/to hit. Let's say that they put it all towards their skill roll. The ISD's now rolling 15D+1 to hit the X-wing, and if it hits will do the base damage of one turbolaser (7D capital-scale/13D starfighter-scale). The X-wing pilot has a skill of 5D. Let's say he's flying at "high speed" and evading fire, so he's at a -1D MAP. So he rolls his 4D, plus the X-wing's maneuverability of 3D, giving him 8D to evade. Add in his 6D of scaling difference, and he's at 14D to evade while booking it out of there. 14D vs. 15D+1 doesn't seem unreasonable to me, and that's if the ISD has just one starfighter-scale target per fire arc, AND allocates all of their bonus dice to their "to hit" roll.
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Darth Ginzain
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Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Combined Fire is a wonderful thing. I've ran fleet engagements before and I mapped out the ships locations, tossed the weapons in the firing arc together and rolled it out with a bucket of dice. Certainly heaps easier then rolling for each battery.
Combined actions works great for starfighters too. A wing of 24 X-Wings attacking a star destroyer is going to have a bad day. 9d proton torpedo versus the SD's 16d , 7d hull+3d shields+6d scale, isn't likely to scratch the paint individually. Combine that wing together and it's more like 17d, 9d proton torpedo + 8d combined fire bonus, versus the SD's 16d hull. Still might not hurt the SD, but at least the Captain will put his coffee down and take notice that his ship is under attack. |
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Matthias777
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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I thought a wing of starfighters was 36 (in the Alliance at least, in the Imperial Navy I know it's 72). I just always think back to how Pash Cracken took out a VSD with a wing of TIE fighters. According to the rules of combined fire, it's completely possible.
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vong
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, there would have to be some chance of balance here. as it would be a bad day both ways....
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Reyus Graven
Ensign
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Darth Ginzain wrote: | Combined Fire is a wonderful thing. I've ran fleet engagements before and I mapped out the ships locations, tossed the weapons in the firing arc together and rolled it out with a bucket of dice. Certainly heaps easier then rolling for each battery.
Combined actions works great for starfighters too. A wing of 24 X-Wings attacking a star destroyer is going to have a bad day. 9d proton torpedo
versus the SD's 16d , 7d hull+3d shields+6d scale, isn't likely to scratch the paint individually. Combine that wing together and it's more like 17d, 9d proton torpedo + 8d combined fire bonus, versus the SD's 16d hull. Still might not hurt the SD, but at least the Captain will put his coffee down and take notice that his ship is under attack. |
With combined fire it is limited based on the command skill or per skill dice in the number of people you can combine fire with. This can be waved somewhat with a group of people you are good at working with. Say the average Wing leaders command skill is 5D he could only combine fire with 5 to say 8 wingmen. while 24 would have to break up between individual wings.
I always figured in a fighter bomber vs capitol ship it was more about where they hit. Taking down sheilds bombing key points of a star destroyer rather then just shooting it. Having X-wings take out guns in an arc and then have Y-wings take out more important structures (shield generators, Engines, the ships bridge).
Like I said before though when you get into the truely huge ships like the superstar destroyer and combine all 100 guns you get a 33D+1 bonus. Against a X-wing alone(for whatever silly reason hes attacking a superstar destroyer on his own) 33D+1 on top of his normal Fire control guarantees a hit. Against another capitol though you don't roll any extra scaled dice. So in many cases if you threw caution to the wind and took a shot against him and put all those bonus dice to damage were talking a 43D+1 damage .
Against a Mon Calamari MC90 with a total of 11D to resist that damage with is a little uneven. A whole fleet could be reduced to rubble in a few turns if it focuses all its batteries on one ship at a time. but if you even it out to about 10 shots per gun. As multiple gunners might not all focus their shots on the same place on a ship that bonus only becomes 3D+1 for a total of 13D+1 which would make a much more even fight against the two ships.
My problem is I'm trying to find balance between the 2 so I don't have to roll so many dice and I have balanced firepower flying between the ships. So bigger ships would still have the advantage against smaller capitol ships but it wouldn't be a slaughter. I do like the input though. I wanted to see if anyone had a better way of doing this. I want to run a campaign with capitol ships as the theme. So naturally I want things to go as smooth as possible so a turn doesn't drag out to. "Oh its the GM's turn lets go play a few rounds of halo while hes rolling for the superstar destroyer."
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Darth Ginzain
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Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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After reviewing my notes I remember now. I always used the combined actions system from 2nd edition. I always felt it was more managable and allowed for greater numbers. Basically the difficulty was based on how many and what skill of people you're combining. The benefit was based on how many you successfully combined.
I've duplicated the combined actions tables from 2nd edition. Use the number of people combined and cross reference the average skill level of them ignoring pips to determine Command Difficulty. The bonus dice are determined simply by the number of people successfully combined rounded down. Failure to roll the target difficulty still yields a partial bonus. Example: Trying combine 100 4d gunners is Very Difficult. Let's call it a difficulty 25. A 22 is rolled. Still within the very difficult range, but not the stated difficulty. Moving up the chart we see the 60 gunners with 4d skill would be around a 22 difficulty so apply the bonus for 60 gunners or +8D. If a 17 had been rolled the bonus would be for 15 gunners or +5D.
Number of People
Combined Average Skill Level
1d 2d 3d 4d 5d 6d 7d 8d+
2 M M E E E VE VE VE
4 D M M M E E VE VE
6 D D M M M M E E
10 D D D M M M E E
15 VD D D D M M M E
25 VD VD D D D M M M
40 VD VD VD D D D M M
60 H VD VD VD D D D M
100 H H VD VD VD D D D
150 H H H VD VD VD D D
250 H H H H VD VD VD D
400 H H H H H VD VD VD
600 H H H H H H VD VD
1000 H H H H H H H VD
1500 H H H H H H H VD
Difficulty Levels: VE = Very Easy, E = Easy, M = Moderate, D = Difficult, VD = Very Difficult, and H = Heroic
Combined Action Bonus Table
Number of
People
Combined / Bonus
2 +1D
4 +2D
6 +3D
10 +4D
15 +5D
25 +6D
40 +7D
60 +8D
100 +9D
150 +10D
250 +11D
400 +12D
600 +13D
1000 +14D
1500 +15D
Using this system a 5D Command skill Wing Commander would have a difficult chance of combining his attacks on the Star Destroyer. An entire wing of 36 yields a difficutly on the low end of difficult. If he successfully commands all 36 they'll enjoy a bonus of +6D to hit or damage split as he feels necessary. All into damage and the wing will roll 15D damage versus the SD's 16D defense.
Can use the same system for capital ships, but firing arcs are critical. An Imperial 1 only has 20 turbolasers in the forward arc. That's a moderate to difficult command roll for a +5D bonus. Combining the Super Star Destroyer's 100 weapons yields a result of +9D but with a high difficult, difficulty.
Hope this is clear. I've previewed it and it isn't displaying as well as I'd hoped. |
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Reyus Graven
Ensign
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Yeah actualy |
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Indeed I'll have to try this in a mock fight just to see if its doable. I love capital ship battles. If this works then I might just have myself a game to run. Challenge two, is to see if the players want to do something along the lines of being various officers aboard a capitol ship.
I read it a little closer and its readable to me. Thanks for the post.
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