Characters Dying and/or Killing Characters.

[AcesAndEights]

Well two characters in one of my campaigns died tonight. (Now mind you, I am not the GM of these games, but I feel this is a GM question. If an admin feels differently, please feel free to move it where you deem appropriate.) Both of them died in normal circumstances. One received two gun shot wounds and the other took a large barbed blade to the stomach. Neither of them did anything particularly stupid, nor were there any reasons to "kill" them. They both died simply because of bad rolls. Hell the one who caught the blade to the stomach didn't even have the chance to roll dodge.

So, given the situation, do you think it appropriate for those characters to have died? I'm just wondering what you guys think because some of the more experienced RPers in the group were having disagreements over the outright death of two characters. (Almost three but, one had their head twisted backward, but, luckily for him, his character has two brains, neither of which are in his skull.) What I'm basically asking is how do you GMs handle PC death?

[Tupteq]

I'm very careful in situations like that. If PCs played well (no stupid actions) I'm trying to help them to survive - usually I'm not revealing damage rolls and difficulties and I'm giving advices like: "a hit was pretty powerful, you think 2 CPs are enough?". Rarely I'm lowering damage totals (especially when player uses some CPs to defend). Also - in certain circumstances I allow reviving. Of course it's pretty difficult and must be done quickly, plus requires special tools (bacta or at least AED). Additionally I'm using slightly different wound table (easier to wound, harder to kill) where instant kill requires damage roll higher by 21 points.
Additionally I changed rules for lightsaber damage (+1 to damage for 1D in control), so lightsaber hits are not so powerful and possible to endure, but it's a completely different story.
Of course there are situations when my PC are dying, but usually I'm planning it precisely to create an epic story. My last campaign ended like a Greek tragedy (only one PC survived, but turned to the Dark Side).

[PsiberDragon]

This is where I'm sure I'm gonna get so dissention, but...

Generally, I tell my players up front: I will NOT kill characters simply due to bad dice rolls. Stupidity (either player or character), however, is a different matter.

Of course, in systems like SW where you could have massive amounts of damage (pumped up Lightsaber, for example), it's a little more difficult to control that factor...

So, suffice to say PC death isn't something I come across fairly frequently. PC DEBT, on the other hand, is pretty common... I mean, C'mon... do you KNOW how much bacta treatments run?
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"Love like you will die tomorrow. Hate like you will live forever." - Unknown

[vong]

I have killed characters before for bad rolls. Sometimes when the players seem to start to think that they are invincible, you have to show them that they are indeed mortal, so you stop pulling punches.

other times, during dramatic moments, sometimes my players will ask me to roll all my rolls out in the open. it will add tension, and they know their death is just a dice roll away (but during these cases, i normally subtract one or 2 dice from the npc roll to give them an advantage, but it still keeps that feeling of imminent death)

so yea, I will kill players for bad rolls, but only in extenuating circumstances.
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[Grimace]

If the character killed by the blade didn't even have a chance to dodge, then that is probably not a "good" PC death. What would help is if you told us the situations revolving around each PC death. How many rolls were made, what the player had done and rolled, how many rolls the GM gave the player to have his character survive, whether the GM asked the players if they wanted to use CPs (if any were used or not) or wanted to use Force Points (again, if any were used or not). All in all, there's a lot of information missing that would really help in determining if these were worthless PC deaths, reasonable PC deaths, fair PC deaths, or what.

Just from what is listed, I'd say the first death is reasonable. You get shot multiple times, you're going to suffer. Bad rolls, especially on the second roll, could easily result in death, especially if the weapon used is a heavy weapon (E-web?). The second death sounds iffy to me. Taking out a PC without giving them even a dodge roll sounds like a GM doing something they shouldn't. Of course, it could be something like the character was stunned and unconcious, therefore they wouldn't reasonably get a dodge and it would go right to damage, but the player should still be able to use CPs to lessen the damage.

So, all in all, one reasonable and one tenatively worthless, but it's hard to vindicate that call without more information.

As far as how I would do it....I've killed characters before in die roll alone. I don't have to have a good reason to kill a character, sometimes I just let the dice do it. I give the player plenty of chances to save a character that way, go so far as to grant regular resistance roll, a "omigosh I'm going to die" roll, and a final "your life is slipping away" roll, and letting the player voice concerns over his character's existance to the other players. If they all fail, though, I'll kill off a character, even if it doesn't necessarily forward the game or make sense from a heroic point of view. Sometimes challenges CAN be deadly, sometimes people NEED to die in combat, it just shouldn't happen all of the time.

If this GM does this often, killing off characters just one die rolls over some rather simple things, especially if the GM denies dodge or saving rolls, then the GM might be slipping into the "Killer GM" stage and needs help.

[cheshire]

Personally, I've got a personal GM rule that I never kill players arbitrarily. I think that heroic characters if defeated in combat should have their party imprisoned while suffering debilitations of recovering from their wounds (or something similar). Let them know that their plans are sidetracked and that they're not invincible, but it takes a lot for me to kill a PC.

I understand and respect the differences of opinion among the other GMs here, but I think that the point of these things is to have fun and to play heroic roles. Being on the ropes for a long time and thinking that you're in a situation that is impossible to get out of is one thing, but ending a character's life is something that I don't think should be done lightly.

I take a different position when players are suffering from terminal stupidity.

[AcesAndEights]

In relation to the second character dying, here are some more details. All of us were in a sewer and the three "fighter" characters were out front. (Our tiny four-armed gunslinger with 1D str, our brawling character, and my character who was carrying the other character who died earlier.) Our medic and pilot (who was sedated because she has a severe fear of water and being carried by the medic) where in the rear with another tank style character. Our little gunslinger got pulled under, after making a perception room and two str rolls he popped back up with his head twisted backwards. After this happened I told the brawling character to cover me while I attempted to set the other character down. I was told to make a perception roll, which I failed, and then a strength roll which I also failed, I then told the GM I was going to cut whatever was trying to pull me under. I took the penalties and made the cut. I floated back up unharmed. Luckily for our little gunslinger his head doesn't house anything important, so our medic comes up, twists his head back and hes good to go. Our medic turns around to go back and sees that the body I set down is gone. Everyone makes a perception roll and all of see the body being held up against the roof. We see the thing holding it and our gunslinger friend takes two shots at it removing one of the things four arms. The thing gets pissed and charges him (he is now behind brawling character and myself.) The thing gets to him and takes a shot at him. He fails the dodge and goes wounded two. The brawler and myself both take shots, along with the medic. My hits misses, the brawling character missed and is tossed backwards and the medic hits. She does weak damage but pisses the thing off and it charges her. The bruiser character throws a flash bang without warning and blinds everyone but the beast, as determined by rolls which the GM did in front of us. The beast takes this opportunity hit the bruiser character and the medic, neither of whom get to dodge, because they're blinded. The GM throws a luck die which doesn't do anything, the GM throws a random die to see where she gets hit (which is something he usually does for all hits), turns out to be the stomach/chest. She rolls strength and rolls a 7 and the beast rolls a 46. She had not character points to burn and we used the last of our medic supplies on the other character. We kill the beast and then work on saving her. With no medical supplies I'm forced to make a number of heroic medical rolls and am unable to do-so. The character dies.

[garhkal]

7-46=39. That is more than double the 16 needed by the book for killing someone. Even bleedout from being mortally wounded, you roll 2d per round with the result if it less than the number of rounds you have been down you die.
So with that, since she went straight to dead, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars, She is dead.

While i don't try to engineer their death, unless i am in the mindset of the baddie, i don't shy from it..
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[Endwyn]

I think that the important thing in this situation is that everyone is knows what to expect. When you have gamed with a group a long time you know how things will be handled. When you are with a new group you do not always know. If everyone knows ahead of time there is rarely any complaining. (It is like dark side points. So long as everyone knows exactly where you draw the line....)

In our group we play it: you can spend 5 character points on a resist. (And since all of them are only wild die in your favor....it helps a lot.) We leave the responsibility to live in the character (and players) hands. If you do not keep a pool of character points for emergencies then you are knowingly risking death from a cheap shot. In the rare case that it was a cheap death and the character has spent the 5 points (or ran out of them doing really heroic stuff before) the GM has occasionally pulled punches. But if the player ran their character into a bad situation they could have avoided (knowing they were out of character points) then they were pushing their luck anyways.

Our system puts character survival in the players hands. It also leaves no one to blame but the player. (Except crazy bad Gming.) It works for us, but honestly because we all know this is the way it will be.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[garhkal]

[Endwyn]

It's possible; but it would depend on the whole situation. In reality, I don't think I would put them up against something that could do 70+ damage per attack.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[AcesAndEights]

Yeah 70+ damage seems a bit high for any character to take. 70 to hit maybe, but not damage. I don't think there is a single character in either of our games that could survive that based on strength and armor alone.

[Endwyn]

Well, assuming 5D STR (which is high for most people); you get an average of around 18 and five CP's would likely give you around 21-26 extra. That still only 39-44....no where near enough to survive. (26+ damage, enough to kill the character with 10 extra.)

I'm used to players being sneaky and finding ways to engage enemies that powerful in non-direct ways.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.

[AcesAndEights]

Yeah, the last time we came up against someone that strong we used the ship turrets to blow him away. He might have been able to hit for 50+ but he sure as hell couldn't take a hit 8D starfighter scale

[Endwyn]

Last time I remember getting hit by something that bad I was the one doing the badness. I let a powerful Jedi hit me (no dodge or parry) and used my action to absorb/dissipate it with a force point. After his lightsaber flickered out because I drained it's power he didn't have many options left. (Not that were going to be obscene.)
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out.