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Bren
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 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: How Imperial Forces Stack Up |
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Here is how I see the various Imperial Forces stacking up against each other.
Stormtroopers are fit, well trained, disciplined, with good equipment and total loyalty to the Emperor. They are competent at small unit and battle tactics and while they obviously prefer to be well led, they will follow their orders, even if the orders are stupid or tactically unsound, to the limit of their considerable ability. Stormtrooper units almost never break no matter what the circumstances. Even if unit cohesion is lost, Stormtroopers will fall back into small unit groupings to continue the fight.
Regular Military personnel (the Imperial Army and Navy) are reasonably fit, professionally trained, and reasonably disciplined. They follow orders, but will resist following orders that seem suicidal or stupid. They tend to be loyal to their own units and comrades first, and many see their duty as first to the Empire and second to the Emperor as leader of the Empire. Senior officers and noncoms tend to be concerned with rules of war and military protocol. Regular Military forces have lower morale and motivation than either Stormtroopers or CompForce personnel.
CompForce (and CompNav) personnel are reasonably fit – on average somewhat more fit than the regular military, minimally or narrowly trained, less disciplined than the regular military, but highly indoctrinated resulting in a fanatical rank and file led by officers who are a mix of more educated fanatics and political hacks scheming for power. CompForce and CompNav will execute any orders from their officers. While the morale of these units is rarely broken, their lack of thorough training and military discipline can cause them to lose unit cohesion and without clear orders and active officers they may refuse to retreat or they may charge without orders. Once unit cohesion is lost, CompForce troops essentially become a mob.
Thoughts? Comments? |
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:44 am Post subject: |
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That's how I have seen them from the start, though I probably could not have described them quite so eloquently... 
The 'Stormtrooper Effect' as seen in various places in the movies just annoys me, these are supposed to the be the Elite forces of the Empire, however, when filming they were the shock and awe factor that GL wanted, it's just unfortunate that they were overused and were (in general) no match for the 'Heroes'.
In my mind they should have been used more carefully in the movies, replacing many with Army or Navy troopers, leaving an Elite few who only went down with one heck of a fight.
Stats? I threw out the WEG stats a long while ago, when my players complained that the Stormtroopers seemed overpowered we sat down and had a pow-wow and everyone conceded that the STs should have been better in the movies... Though I do have 'baseline' stats for them which are closer to the originals, most STs are well trained, well disciplined, and deadly to boot, especially in numbers'
Now my players know that, for the most part, if they see STs coming their way they could be in BIG trouble, but to compensate I usually have them encounter Army or Navy troopers.
I may just take those descriptions and use them to firm up my players impressions of the main antagonists, if you don't mind...
T.C. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Most polite of you to ask. Please feel free to use what you like. 
One thing I tried to do was describe them in relative terms rather than by number of D in skills. So if you like the concept, just put in the appropriate stats for your view of the forces. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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With me, i try to have stormies be the Shock troops, while regular army are the holders..
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | With me, i try to have stormies be the Shock troops, while regular army are the holders.. |
Me too. |
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Azai
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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It is strange, as usually our characters are always against the Imperials, yet we mostly fight criminal elements.
I'm been getting more on the boat that stormies need to be elite. The Army is the standard, and the Naval Troopers... Well they are the ones with the "true" stormtrooper effect.
I think of them as son's, nephew's, or people that are from higher middle to high class that just want an easy tour and then move up the ranks. Kinda where the snobby boys are "thrown" |
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vanir
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Every comment in the thread I find just brilliant, wouldn't even try to fault them.
I try to reconcile a memory of that period prior to the release of RotJ when my schoolfriends and I started ad hoc RPG in the playground in primary school. We used the trading cards and some of the earliest EU for inspiration, but were the nerdy crowd and tried to make everything fit and make sense to our own minds too.
Okay so way back then a lot of canon was very formative and contradictory to current canon, but the whole setting was a little more (sci-) fantasy trilogy and less childrens movie/cartoon series, I mean just the description in the "Ep IV" paperback of Luke's family being blasted to bits with their stinking burnt corpses and the smoke from their cooked flesh stinging his nose and eyes as he gritted his teeth and silently swore revenge, well it just wasn't Ewoks or Jar Jar Binks, y'know what I'm sayin? I read that in about grade 4 and was totally blown away...it was awesome.
Initially Stormtroopers were the elite shock trooper guard formed by Vader. Darth Vader was of course a person's name, not a title. He was a close friend of Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader. Just like the way Wedge Antillies is Luke's friend. That's how it was back then. Also why Kenobi greets Vader on the Death Star like this, "Hello, Darth." All this was just obvious canon back then. It all got crapped up in RotJ (ie. when Vader said, "No, I am your father," Lucas himself said his intention was that the statement was a typical Dark Side lie used to confuse and dominate young Jedi apprentices by experienced field combatants that fully know how to use psychology to battlefield effect, Lucas said that fans didn't seem to get it and were so engrossed by the soap opera of Darth Vader actually being Luke's father he decided to change his mind and make it a truthful statement in RotJ and furthermore, to make Leia his sister, since by then it was all about the fans and not his own story ideas).
Lord of the Sith was Darth Vader's title, and it arrived as described in the trading cards, by a planet of aliens that Darth was sent to pacify by the Emperor. It was a backwater culture and Darth was worshipped as a god for his abilities with the Force, instead of destroying the world he turned them into faithful servants of the Empire and in recognition of this feat he became known as "the Lord of the Sith" which was what that alien culture was called. In modern EU they are represented by the Noghri.
Basically I've probably a different appreciation of the various arms of the Empire than most. Especially the Clone Wars.
You know what the Clone Wars was originally about? It was the Mandalorian Wars. The Mandalorian Knights were a militant empire on the fringes of the galaxy which fought the Jedi Knights. They used excellent shock troop technologies but were of course no match for Jedi Knights, who used the Force. So what they did was stunned/captured Jedi, then cloned them and murdered them. The clone, which was inherently insane and a servant of the Dark Side was then sent back into the ranks of the Jedi. It almost wiped them out.
It's a whole different world, my view of the SWU. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Darth Vader was of course a person's name, not a title. He was a close friend of Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader. Also why Kenobi greets Vader on the Death Star like this, "Hello, Darth." All this was just obvious canon back then. It all got crapped up in RotJ (ie. when Vader said, "No, I am your father," Lucas himself said his intention was that the statement was a typical Dark Side lie used to confuse and dominate young Jedi apprentices by experienced field combatants that fully know how to use psychology to battlefield effect, Lucas said that fans didn't seem to get it and were so engrossed by the soap opera of Darth Vader actually being Luke's father he decided to change his mind and make it a truthful statement in RotJ and furthermore, to make Leia his sister, since by then it was all about the fans and not his own story ideas). |
There is a little truth in there, but a lot that is incorrect. The story treatments and scripts of the original Star Wars went through a lot of revisions, but as it got close to the film version, Lucas realized he had way too much material for one film so decided to expand the first act into its own film, which was the basic story of the first film ending with to the rescue of Princess Leia from the Death Star. The second act of this pre-trilogy version included an in-depth sequence of Luke being trained as a Jedi and Luke's first direct confrontation with Vader. From at least this point in the story development, Vader was planned to be Luke's father. But for the first film Lucas really didn't want to part with his final battle of the Rebels against the Death Star, so he ended up taking that from the end of his third act and tacking it on to the end of the first. There really wasn't room for the drama of Vader being Luke's father so that got cut from the first film too.
I agree that it is suggested by the released version of the original film alone that Darth was a name, and Obi-Wan may have simply told Luke the truth that Luke's father was a fellow Jedi Knight and Vader was Obi-Wan's student who turned to evil and killed Luke's father. Lucas had no idea that there would even be any sequels so didn't leave a lot of loose threads hanging. Vader survives and the Empire still exists, but they have lost their superweapon and the Rebellion has provided the oppressed galaxy with a new hope for freedom. The end result worked well enough to ensure that Star Wars could become a massively successful franchise where the reduced story of the first film could be re-expanded. At a rare convention appearance after the release of the first film, Lucas was asked about the back story of Vader, and Lucas actually told the crowd that Vader was Luke's father. Amazingly, that spoiler somehow wasn't spread around to become common knowledge. Lucas was thankful because as he worked further on the story treatment for TESB, he realized that Vader's revelation to Luke (and at the same time the audience) would be a major focus point of the drama for the second film.
And there is one point in the first film that I feel further supports this. If you'll watch closely when Luke asked Obi-Wan about his father, Obi-Wan takes a deep breath and looks away. Could this mean that Obi-Wan was merely preparing himself to reveal to Luke that his father had been murdered, a moment he had dreaded for years had finally arrived? Possibly. But my interpretation of the scene is that Lucas directed Alec Guinness to act as if Obi-Wan might be lying to Luke. No, that doesn't mean that Guiness was in on the secret. I think he had no clue what the truth might be, and simply just doing his job and following his director's direction. During the filming of the original film, when Mark Hamill had asked Lucas for a little more back story about his father, Lucas spoke as if Vader and Luke's father were separate people.
It's obvious to me that Lucas was leaving it open in the first film to go either way for possible sequels and prequels. But leaving it open doesn't mean that Lucas didn't originally conceive of the idea of Vader being Luke's father before the first film.
When TESB was made, Vader's line "No, I am your father" was left out of the handed-out script. The only ones that knew about the line were Lucas, the screenwriters and the director. When they got to the point of filming the pivotal scene, they individually pulled David Prowse and Mark Hamill aside. They told Prowse (who spoke Vader's lines during filming before they were later dubbed over by James Earl Jones) to say "No, Obi-Wan killed your father." They told Hamill what the true statement would later become since he's a method actor and wanted to him to portray the most convincing response. So Hamil was officially let in on the secret at that point. So when they filmed the scene Vader said Obi-Wan killed Luke's father - that is what Hamill and all the crew heard. Hamill, Lucas and the director knew the line would be replaced and Hamill reacted accordingly. Just as Lucas predicted, the spoken line was leaked by crew to the media, and rumors were spread and grew to the point of news stories eventually being generated that in the coming Star Wars sequel Obi-Wan Kenobi would be revealed to be a major villain! (That notion still gives me a chuckle). Obviously the false line was a red herring to lead people astray from the true revelation that blew everyone away.
The first time the real line was thought to be a lie was from the first time it was ever spoken (when James Earl Jones was dubbing all of Vader's lines during TESB post-production). They didn't let Jones in on the secret, but obviously he had to say the real line. Jones reports that he believed that Vader was simply lying to Luke. Jones had no idea that was the truth until he read the script to RotJ and Yoda confirmed it to Luke. A lot of TESB movie-goers actually didn't believe Vader either at the time.
Contrary to Luke and Vader, Lucas admits that Leia wasn't always planned to be Luke's sister. Yoda's mentioning of "another" in TESB was primarily a dramatic tool used to suggest to the audience that Luke's survival isn't vital to the story. It makes people feel that Luke' life (and/or soul) is really in jeopardy, which intensifies the drama. It's a cheap trick, but it worked. Of course he knew he would eventually have to explain who the "other" was. Lucas knew that he had a trilogy's worth of story and that the back story could be developed into a trilogy as well, but after the huge success of the original film up through when he was producing TESB, Lucas entertained the possibility of expanding the saga further into one or two more sequel trilogies. He never had a solid story for them. He just thought they could tell the story of the final victory of the Alliance over the Empire (the Emperor wasn't even going to appear in RotJ at one point). He only had a few vague ideas for additional trilogies, but one of them was that Luke would have a long-lost sister who would be introduced and trained by Luke to be a Jedi. Tying that into TESB, she could end up being the "other" Yoda referred to. But soon after TESB when Lucas had to begin working on the 3rd film, he gave up on the wild idea of sequel trilogies and officially decided to wrap up the story in the RotJ. Applying the "other" and the long-lost sister idea to Leia not only meant a new character wouldn't have to be introduced, it actually helped to resolve the Han-Leia-Luke "love triangle" subplot from the original film (Han thinks Leia may have also fallen in love with Luke while Han was frozen in carbonite and reacts until Leia tells him Luke is her brother at the end).
And Lucas also admits that he didn't even come up with Vader's pivotal lines that enrages Luke to give into the Dark Side on Death Star II ("So, you have a twin sister... If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will."). Lucas admits that the shooting script just had "Vader says something that upsets Luke". Lucas wasn't even totally sure who came up with the idea, but he thought it might be the late director. To me, without that in the movie, it makes Leia being Luke's sister seem like a minor plot convenience with no real meaning to that saga. Whoever came up with that was genius. The thought of Leia being turned to the Dark Side provoking Luke to attack Vader, almost succumbing to the Dark Side until his realization he was becoming Vader is what leads to Luke's personal climax in the story - throwing away his lightsaber and proclaiming to the Emperor he had lost in his plan to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Luke had at that single moment completed his trial and became a Jedi Knight. Of course, the rest was up to his father he maintained faith in to return as a Jedi and destroy the Sith. So Leia is Luke's sister, the twins are both saved from turning to the Dark Side, and the film saga gets wrapped up all nice and pretty with an Ewok on top.
Lucas admitting that he didn't originally plan for Leia to be Luke's sister makes it more believable that Lucas really did plan on Vader being Luke's father before the trilogy. If Lucas wanted to lie about Vader being Luke's father all along, then he could have just as easily lied about Leia too. Lucas admits that Leia didn't officially become the "other" and Luke's sister until pre-production for RotJ. Lucas could have lied about coming up with Vader's lines referring to Leia because the person who probably came up with the idea was dead and couldn't contest it. But Lucas didn't lie about Leia being Luke's sister. He could have, but didn't. So I have no reason to think he is lying that Vader was planned to be Luke's father before the original film. During the production of the original Star Wars film Lucas thought he could make six films, waivered for a short time on the possibility to make more but returned to his original vision. Lucas also planned on Vader being Luke's father all along, then removed that part of the plot for the first film, the reinserted it into the plot of the saga. It's not unprecedented.
And in light of the other five films, it not a stretch to view Obi-Wan calling Vader by the Sith title "Darth" on the Death Star was a way to emphasize Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi Order by suppressing his true identity with the adoption of a Sith identity, or it could merely be taken as sarcasm meant to mock Vader by pointing out that Obi-Wan knows the real truth about him. Not a big deal.
So in direct response to your above paragraph, Vader was Luke's father before the first film, Vader was never lying to Luke, and there was no "soap opera" effect where the fans changed Lucas plans. Furthermore Lucas has proven time and time again that he doesn't let fan desires influence his products. The overwhelmingly negative response to the Prequel films by our original generation of Star Wars fans is proof itself that Lucas doesn't really give a damn about what Star Wars fans think (partially why he clearly differentiates each fan's view of Star Wars from the official EU and His own personal view). Lucas has been nothing but extremely single-minded about his visions in that respect. The idea that fan opinion ever had any influence on Lucas is outright laughable, especially in light of the last 15 years of the Star Wars franchise.
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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I broke-up my original reply into 2 posts, the above and this one...
| vanir wrote: | I try to reconcile a memory of that period prior to the release of RotJ when my schoolfriends and I started ad hoc RPG in the playground in primary school. We used the trading cards and some of the earliest EU for inspiration, but were the nerdy crowd and tried to make everything fit and make sense to our own minds too...
Basically I've probably a different appreciation of the various arms of the Empire than most... It's a whole different world, my view of the SWU. |
Indeed it is. As I was reading your post I noticed several inaccuracies, and then I got to the end and thought oh, this "view" is only your personal SWU. Then I went back reread your post and your language does indicate you believe these things to be true about SW in general (and you misquote Lucas).
| Quote: | | Okay so way back then a lot of canon was very formative and contradictory to current canon. |
I think I can agree with that basic idea, but not in that exact terminology. The concepts of "canon" and "EU" weren't used back during the time of the original trilogy. Lucas provided minimal guidance to the Marvel comic series and the Splinter in the Mind's Eye novel, but the modern EU and canon concerns didn't really come to the forefront of Star Wars publishing until the early 90's when they tried to reconcile Dark Empire with Heir to the Empire. That is when the "EU" was forged and canon levels were officially defined to determine and resolve continuity issues, including the going back to all the previously published story continuity and assigning everything a canon level of C, S or N.
| Quote: | | Lord of the Sith was Darth Vader's title, and it arrived as described in the trading cards, by a planet of aliens that Darth was sent to pacify by the Emperor. It was a backwater culture and Darth was worshipped as a god for his abilities with the Force, instead of destroying the world he turned them into faithful servants of the Empire and in recognition of this feat he became known as "the Lord of the Sith" which was what that alien culture was called. In modern EU they are represented by the Noghri. |
Timothy Zahn claims to have created the idea of an alien species in servitude to Vader. He states than when he proposed that to Lucasfilm, they replied that the species couldn't be named the Sith (because Lucas had other plans for what that mysterious title "Dark Lord of the Sith" might mean and what the term "Sith" might refer to, even though he later let the EU contradict his view of the Sith). So Zahn changed the species name to Noghri and that was accepted. I don't think that Zahn would have the balls to falsely claim to be the originator of something that Lucas really came up with. Who would be that stupid (besides supershadow)?
Say, do you get your information from supershadow? He has been proven to be hoax, you know. There is even a detailed Wookieepedia page about him and his BS site. I got all of my information above from the following sources I own:
The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film
Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
Star Wars interviews in various issues of Starlog magazine going back to the 80s
The Star Wars Adventure Journal
The Star Wars film DVD commentaries (I highly recommend listening to these because if you already own the movies, then you can learn a lot of true facts about Star Wars at no additional cost.)
And vanir, I want to be clear that there is nothing personal by my refuting much of what you post. I don't care what you really believe and I am not trying to convince you of anything. I'm posting my response in the interest of having factual information in reply to your false information. It is for the sake of the other users of this site and the many more lurkers who read the site or may come to it through Google searches. There is a lot of false information available on the internet about Star Wars (and everything), but I personally love this site so I am more personally motivated to protect the integrity of what is read here when I can. Sure many users disagree with each other on the forum and there are many debates available to read. That is ok, but I couldn't let your wildly inaccurate assertions go uncontested.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sone interesting info there..
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: Re: How Imperial Forces Stack Up |
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| Bren wrote: | Here is how I see the various Imperial Forces stacking up against each other.
Stormtroopers are fit, well trained, disciplined, with good equipment and total loyalty to the Emperor. They are competent at small unit and battle tactics and while they obviously prefer to be well led, they will follow their orders, even if the orders are stupid or tactically unsound, to the limit of their considerable ability. Stormtrooper units almost never break no matter what the circumstances. Even if unit cohesion is lost, Stormtroopers will fall back into small unit groupings to continue the fight.
Regular Military personnel (the Imperial Army and Navy) are reasonably fit, professionally trained, and reasonably disciplined. They follow orders, but will resist following orders that seem suicidal or stupid. They tend to be loyal to their own units and comrades first, and many see their duty as first to the Empire and second to the Emperor as leader of the Empire. Senior officers and noncoms tend to be concerned with rules of war and military protocol. Regular Military forces have lower morale and motivation than either Stormtroopers or CompForce personnel.
CompForce (and CompNav) personnel are reasonably fit – on average somewhat more fit than the regular military, minimally or narrowly trained, less disciplined than the regular military, but highly indoctrinated resulting in a fanatical rank and file led by officers who are a mix of more educated fanatics and political hacks scheming for power. CompForce and CompNav will execute any orders from their officers. While the morale of these units is rarely broken, their lack of thorough training and military discipline can cause them to lose unit cohesion and without clear orders and active officers they may refuse to retreat or they may charge without orders. Once unit cohesion is lost, CompForce troops essentially become a mob.
Thoughts? Comments? |
Thank you for the well-thought-out analyses.
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Azai
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:49 am Post subject: |
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There is one thing I'd disagree with you about Whill.
I think Lucas still listens to fan desires. Or keeps them in his mind when doing things.
But those fans aren't the those who were up with A New Hope, Empire and Jedi.
They are the now a days 8-16 year olds that watch the Clone Wars, buy the toys, buy the video games, and all that fun stuff. I think he does pay attention to them.
I actually found an interesting article that compared the then Lucas director and the now Lucas producer. Suggesting when Lucas had to compromise, fight, and get agreement for his ideas(against the studio and other people) during the original trilogy it turned out great. But in the prequels since he didn't have to agree with anyone and just did what he wants, it turned out not so great. What he decided was it, and that was the end. There was no compromise.
I wanna find it, it was highlighting the idea the essentially debate is good for the creative process and helps weed out the silly stuff. And the compromises are usually the better ideas. For the most part. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Azai wrote: | | I wanna find it, it was highlighting the idea the essentially debate is good for the creative process and helps weed out the silly stuff. And the compromises are usually the better ideas. For the most part. |
I don't think that is universally true. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking there was a lot more compromise on the original (and mostly lame) Battlestar Galactica than there was on say Babylon 5. Straczynski was not known for compromise on B5.
I don't think that compromise leads to great outcomes. I think that lack of compromise with a poor vision leads to crap. A great vision and a good collaborative effort leads to great things. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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My personal guess is that Lucas is great at generating lots of new ideas many of which are good, and some of which are bad enough to more than make up for the good ones. (I'm talking about you, Jar Jar. )In the first trilogy, had people there to tell him what was a bad idea (mostly,) but now, he really has no way to judge ahead of time which will be good ones and which won't.
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Grimace
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Here we go into "canon" again.  |
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