Encumbrance Rules

[CRMcNeill]

I've been thinking about this off and on in relationship to some of the WH40K Conversions I want to do. One of the rules there for heavy pieces of equipment is that they inflict a Move penalty that increases depending on how much the piece of equipment weighs (relative to other pieces of equipment, mostly). I considered doing something similar for WEG by making items inflict a penalty to the character's base Move, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

An alternate idea that just came to me, however, is having a character who wants to carry something heavy roll their Strength or Lifting against whatever Difficulty of weight the object is, which then inflicts a Lost Move until the object is set down.

For instance, if a human with a Str of 2D wanted to carry an object that was Easy to carry, they'd roll their Str against Easy Difficulty to see if they can carry it unencumbered. So, say, for every 5 points missed, the character would take a Lost Move; miss by 5 points and you can't move at All-Out while carrying the object, miss by 10 and you can't move at Full, and so on.

This is just bare bones at the moment, but I figured I'd throw it out there to see what y'all think.

EDIT: If I can work out the bugs on this, I'll post it here.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Naaman]

If you're looking at a universal overhaul on encumbrance, I'd recommend throwing armor into the mix as well.

As it sits, armor imposes a DEX penalty, which I think is inappropriate. It should impose a penalty on dodge and running. That's it.

That being said, I think that provides some context for overall encumbrance.

1. Encumbrance ought to take total weight carried into account (since we don't have access to portable holes or handy haver sacks in SW).

2. There should be a threshold that triggers a lifting roll, rather than rolling lifting everytime a character wants to lift something. Perhaps for each D in lifting, the character can carry x kg of stuff without having to roll.

3. The ability to exert force to actually lift something heavy is represented by a lifting ROLL, while the ability to carry around gear is represented by the lifting SKILL LEVEL.

Looking at your first suggestion, I see an issue right off the bat: if a character rolls "low" and thereby slows himself down too much, he can just put the object down and try again for a higher roll so that he can move at full speed instead.

Rather, the ability to carry stuff is fairly predictable (people generally know how strong they are and whether they can successfully lift a given load). It's not like they'll try to lift something they know they can carry and then, "SURPRISE! You rolled too low to carry that thing this time. Try again later." Yes, I know: there can be mistakes made in lifting technique that can cause problems, but we are talking about encumbrance in general, not wild die mishaps and such.

Max speed should probably be based on character mass rather than actual lifting skill. There are some "equal but opposite" effects coming into play, after all.

More to come later.

[garhkal]

Rules of Engagement had some stuff on Encumbrance... Plus we've discussed this before..

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=221&highlight=encumbrance

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2203&highlight=encumbrance

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1037&highlight=encumbrance
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[CRMcNeill]

So, I'm coming at this from a couple different directions...

First off, I have the Carrier Cargo house rule, where the more a ship carries, the slower it goes and the more difficult any maneuvers get.

I also have a concept for a gravity-based weapon (a Graviton Gun crossover from Warhammer 40K) that reduces the target's Move by making it "heavier" (An additional effect from Graviton Gun damage to spacecraft is to increase any Astrogation Difficulties, which allows Graviton Guns to function as a mini-interdictor.

The third leg of this would be an Encumbrance game mechanism that penalizes a character's base Move, so that different Scales of Graviton Guns wouldn't need completely different sets of rules; a Graviton Gun fired at a human would decrease their base Move just as it would a ship or vehicle.

In the WH40K rules I'm using as the source, certain weapons and items are treated as Heavy, and have an attendant Move penalty applied to the model carrying them (this can be offset by anti-gravity suspensor units).

What I'm thinking at the moment is to use the RoE Encumbrance guidelines to treat a reasonable amount of equipment as Normal or Light, then categorize all weapons and equipment above a certain size as Heavy, then assign both a Move penalty and - if needs be - a Stamina penalty for carrying the object for long periods of time. Particularly strong characters could then roll Strength or Lifting to offset the penalties.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Naaman, with regard to your Armor point, I'd suggest that Armor should come with a Move penalty instead of a Running penalty, which the character can then compensate for with a good Running skill roll, like what I included in my Agility skill.

It could also include some variation Muscle Memory optional rule I mentioned in the Bowcasters topic, so that a character can eventually become so familiar with carrying a heavy object that they are no longer considered encumbered by it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[CRMcNeill]

[Naaman]

I know a lot of games impose a base move penalty for armor.

I like your idea about muscle memory overcoming the penalties. I would recommend having it apply to the move penalty, as well (if you don't want to apply it to just Running).

In my experience, the base move is virtually unaffected by kit, but running definitely suffers.

In the army, there is a 15-minute per mile standard when carrying a "45-pound" ruck sack (it's actually 45 pounds plus "other stuff"). Armor and kit adds an additional 35-50 pounds depending on the soldier's size (bigger folks wear bigger armor).

In any case, once you get used to armor, it doesn't slow down your "tactical" movements. But running is reduced, for sure.

Now, for unfamiliarized civilians encumbered, all the stuff you mention seems appropriate to me.

[CRMcNeill]

Maybe I could split the difference between encumbering equipment that is worn vs. carried, with Armor not affecting the base Move, but penalizing Agility (Running & Dodge under my system) and Stamina (when rolling for Long-Distance Movement).

Then, carried equipment would have a Base Move penalty, but that penalty would be reduced by a certain amount if said equipment can be carried on the character's core (slung, in a backpack, on an equipment harness, etc.). That would also work for, say, an Aliens-style smart gun rig, where the weapon can be carried at the ready, but the weight of it is actually on the wearer's core, not his arms.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Naaman]

I don't know.

I was just throwing out some data points for you in case they inform your process.

I guess it depends on how crunchy you want to get.

I kinda feel like lifting (and stamina, for that matter) should have both a roll function and a static/passive function.

To me, it feels like what you want to do would require coming up with "passive" strength/lifting that represents what a character CAN carry, and the lifting rolls would be reserved for exerting strength in dynamic scenarios (pulling a buddy out of a wrecked, burning speeder; a tug of war contest; pushing a heavy load up hill on a slippery/loose surface, etc.).

[CRMcNeill]

At the moment, what seems to fit with my other two influencing concepts is to have a standard for what's Heavy and what isn't, then allow characters with better Strength, Lifting and/or Stamina be able to roll to offset some or all of the penalties. That's the passive/active function; basically, it ignores Encumbrance unless the characters are actually trying to carry something heavy, either because its stats say so or because the GM decides that it is, at which point he can assign an Encumbrance penalty to their Move, which they can either accept or attempt to off-set with their Strength skills.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[garhkal]

[CRMcNeill]

What is this "pounds" thing of which you speak? We deal in kilograms here.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[CRMcNeill]

And even converting your system to kilograms, Lifting Difficulties don't scale up arithmetically, so there would be a rapidly increasing inequity in how much a character can lift vs. how much they can carry.

At most, I'd go for a set of general weight guidelines to help GM's generate Heavy penalties for a given object, including weight, bulk, presence of handholds, shoulder straps, etc. A character sling a heavy backpack over their shoulders far more easily than they can lug it around in their arms.

What I'm looking for here is a system where Encumbrance can be ignored except where it's a story factor, such as characters having to lug a disassembled E-Web up to the top of a hill to get a clear field of fire, or characters having to carry a box with a critical component for their hyperdrive out to whatever secret landing spot they've hidden their starship. It also allows for the balancing of some powerful weapon systems by making them difficult to lug around.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Bren]

[Mamatried]

yeah looks like they are pounding eachother.........

I wonder though will that halve the laod?

[Naaman]