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Hellcat
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | By the time we got to RotJ, my wife just assumed Luke would somehow find a way to kill the Sith Lords. Noticing the parallels with Anakin and Luke in Luke's final confrontation with the Sith, she realized that in his rage, Luke was starting to go down the path of his father and then was worried about her prediction that Luke would kill Vader because she of course didn't want Luke to make the same choise her father had. When he didn't, my wife was relieved, |
But that's the thing. Luke gave in to the dark side in order to protect his own sister just as their father gave in to the dark side believing it would help save his wife. The difference is that when Palpatine started congratulating Luke he realized what he had done and he chose to renounce it. Had Palpatine not said anything Luke would have killed Vader. He hears what Palpatine says and he looks are his father and at his own hand. His father who is more man than machine because he turned to the dark side. He lost his hand to his father and now has a mechanical hand. Thus he realizes that if he completely gives in to the dark side he'll become exactly like his old man.
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Hellcat wrote: | Luke gave in to the dark side in order to protect his own sister just as their father gave in to the dark side believing it would help save his wife...
...he looks are his father and at his own hand. His father who is more man than machine because he turned to the dark side. He lost his hand to his father and now has a mechanical hand. Thus he realizes that if he completely gives in to the dark side he'll become exactly like his old man. |
I agree with these parts of your quote 100%.
| Hellcat wrote: | | Had Palpatine not said anything Luke would have killed Vader. |
That "what if" is debatable with no possible way to reach any conclusion about a fictional story written intentionally to end the way it did, so I don't see any point in hashing out any speculations.
| Hellcat wrote: | | But that's the thing... The difference is that when Palpatine started congratulating Luke he realized what he had done and he chose to renounce it. |
If the point of your post was that Palpatine's overconfidence was a weakness of his, the I do agree with your conclusion.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | However, morality is not portrayed so subjectively in the SW films. Being fiction, the stories do contain messages about right and wrong. You as a real world viewer of the films may agree or disagree with all the messages, but the messages indicate there are some moral absolutes in Star Wars. |
Ummm... How exactly do you balance that with Kenobi's line, "only a Sith deals in absolutes,"? |
I think there are moral absolutes for The Force, but those morals are difficult for mortals to grasp. Jedi allow The Force to guide them in their decisions, thus getting through the clutter of the ethical theories of mortals.
The Sith, I imagine, use absolutes from the ethical theories, arbitrarily, to justify their actions. |
Interesting. I see it almost the opposite. I think the Sith are the ones who have their "theology" right. Academically, they hold the high ground, (and the Dark Side is stronger). The problem is that they are motivated only by selfishness. They really do know right from wrong by the time they are mature, and they have chosen wrong with their eyes open, so to speak.
The Jedi are kind and selfless idiots. They spend most of their time generating pointless ethical rules and dogma that cloud real moral judgement an generally make life harder. They don't really understand the foundational nature of right and wrong and easily get confused. They do press through it all, though, by treating others well, or at least as well as they know how.
As such neither the Sith, nor the Jedi are right, and neither group will become so. The Sith won't give up the selfish path they chose, and the Jedi associate Sith understanding of morality and absolutes with those mean dark Jedi that get together and cause trouble every few thousand years.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Whill, your preceding analysis of the saga is very insightful. I'll admit that I am one of the many who is jaded about the prequels, but perhaps that is because it is difficult to see through the ham-handed execution of a really good story.
| Whill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | "Evil is a point of view, Anakin" said the evil main villain of the saga. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | And what he said was true. From a certain point of view. Part of Palpatine's genius was using the truth to prove an evil point. "Even the devil quotes scripture for his own ends." |
I wholeheartedly disagree that a "truth" demonstrated by Star Wars is that evil is subjective. Star Wars is clearly about good vs. evil, not only demonstrated by good guys fighting bad guys but also by Anakin's internal struggle. Good or evil is really defined by the choices you make. And it is never too late to choose good again, even after 20+ years of chosing evil. |
Yes, Star Wars is about good vs. evil, and as the audience we have complete understanding about who is which of these two things. It's interesting, however, how the relativist and the absolutist statements flip flop between them. There's also the RotJ (late) Kenobi who tells Luke that his story of how Vader killed Anakin was true from 'a certain point of view'.
The take-away that I get from that is that the good and evil remain the good and evil, but the rhetoric switches back and forth. It's like politics - when a certain party is in power, they will do the same things they accused the previous party in power of when they were in the opposition. However, in the RW, good and evil are far more difficult to discern (with a few obvious exceptions).
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | I think there are moral absolutes for The Force, but those morals are difficult for mortals to grasp. Jedi allow The Force to guide them in their decisions, thus getting through the clutter of the ethical theories of mortals.
The Sith, I imagine, use absolutes from the ethical theories, arbitrarily, to justify their actions. |
Interesting. I see it almost the opposite. I think the Sith are the ones who have their "theology" right. Academically, they hold the high ground, (and the Dark Side is stronger). The problem is that they are motivated only by selfishness. They really do know right from wrong by the time they are mature, and they have chosen wrong with their eyes open, so to speak. |
I'd be curious to have you explore this "theology"/academic high ground more.
The Dark Side is more powerful in terms of making it easier for someone to affect their environment. However, turning to the Dark Side also means losing control over oneself. If 'power' is the ability to do what you choose to do, then what you gain on the ability side, you lose on the 'choice' side of the power equation.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The Jedi are kind and selfless idiots. They spend most of their time generating pointless ethical rules and dogma that cloud real moral judgement an generally make life harder. They don't really understand the foundational nature of right and wrong and easily get confused. They do press through it all, though, by treating others well, or at least as well as they know how. |
You are right, we disagree. Yes, the Jedi spend more time contemplating morals, but that is because they know that their force powers lend themselves toward the danger of losing control over themselves and their actions.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | As such neither the Sith, nor the Jedi are right, and neither group will become so. The Sith won't give up the selfish path they chose, and the Jedi associate Sith understanding of morality and absolutes with those mean dark Jedi that get together and cause trouble every few thousand years. |
I think this touches the other debate that Whill brings in. I guess it depends on what sort of story you want to tell. Star Wars, as written, is about good and evil. I suppose you can decide to create a morally neutral view of the dichotomy if you want to - kind of like order vs. chaos, or something of that nature. I certainly think that we have too much of this good vs. evil thinking in the real world and I think that is, partially, a function of the sorts of stories we tell. But, does that mean that I'm going to tweak Star Wars into a more relativistic story... I'm not so sure. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Whill, your preceding analysis of the saga is very insightful. |
Hey, I'm starting to like this guy!
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I'll admit that I am one of the many who is jaded about the prequels, but perhaps that is because it is difficult to see through the ham-handed execution of a really good story. |
I know a lot of people may see me as the "Prequel poster boy" around here, and they are correct. I do pretty much fill that role. But I am that because I feel I have to be. If not me, then who else will represent the minority view here? But in reality, I'm not single-minded, and I don't think George Lucas or the prequels are perfect. I consider myself more of a "entire film saga" fan. I think the overall story, from Episode I to VI, is totally awesome. I hail Lucas as a creative genius for his story and his vision of the Star Wars universe.
I don't share the opinions of most of the criticisms I hear about the prequels, but I'll admit that one of the problems with the prequels is the performance of some of the actors. But I actually don't blame the actors for that (too much). I speculate that most of the problem comes from George Lucas' direction. I think Lucas is a totally awesome director when it comes to visualizing a scene, but I think he is not the best director of people. Some actors though carry their own weight so it is not always visible. I think Harrison Ford and Ewan McGregor are totally awesome despite Lucas' direction (or lack thereof). However, Hayden Christensen, and even Mark Hamil (gasp! yes, I said it) both fail in some scenes and Lucas's only direction was, "OK, let's try that again, faster and more intense."
Hopefully a few of the die-hard prequel-haters out there can now respect me at least a little bit for admitting I see a flaw in the prequels. I'm not one-dimensional!
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think the Sith are the ones who have their "theology" right. |
Some of you guys are really scaring me.
| Quote: | Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No...no...no. Quicker, easier , more seductive. |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | and the Dark Side is stronger |
Yoda would disagree with you.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | The take-away that I get from that is that the good and evil remain the good and evil, but the rhetoric switches back and forth. |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The Jedi are kind and selfless idiots. They spend most of their time generating pointless ethical rules and dogma |
Putting the EU aside, all we see in the movies is a failing and decimated Jedi Order. I choose to envision that Luke and Leia (with the counsel of the Force ghosts of Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin) will build a wiser Jedi Order that learns from the mistakes of the past.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I know a lot of people may see me as the "Prequel poster boy" around here, and they are correct. I do pretty much fill that role. But I am that because I feel I have to be. |
It's a useful role. One I am glad you are filling and you do it well.
| Quote: | | I don't share the opinions of most of the criticisms I hear about the prequels, but I'll admit that one of the problems with the prequels is the performance of some of the actors. But I actually don't blame the actors for that (too much). I speculate that most of the problem comes from George Lucas' direction. |
I think for some of the acting there is plenty of blame to go around. Some lines are stilted and flat because they were written stilted and flat. Some actors sound lame and ham-handed, because they are only average actors muddling through turgid dialog and bad direction and often only strong personalities or good actors can rise above inadequate writing and directing.
I recently read the novelization of RotS and I was pleasantly surprised at how much better the character motivation for Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme came through in the novel. That leads me to believe a better director (and a script rewrite) could have gotten significantly better performances out of the actors.
| Quote: | | I'm not one-dimensional! |
One dimensional you are not. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I think the Sith are the ones who have their "theology" right. |
Some of you guys are really scaring me.
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I would have thought I had started to scare you back when I posited the idea that the force had a literal off switch in a different galaxy! 
I just think they have a better handle on how the universe really works, kind of like how Nazi were horrible people, who had a good handle on economics... More on this later. | Whill wrote: |
| Quote: | Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No...no...no. Quicker, easier , more seductive. |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | and the Dark Side is stronger |
Yoda would disagree with you.
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He would. I just think he's wrong.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | I think there are moral absolutes for The Force, but those morals are difficult for mortals to grasp. Jedi allow The Force to guide them in their decisions, thus getting through the clutter of the ethical theories of mortals.
The Sith, I imagine, use absolutes from the ethical theories, arbitrarily, to justify their actions. |
Interesting. I see it almost the opposite. I think the Sith are the ones who have their "theology" right. Academically, they hold the high ground, (and the Dark Side is stronger). The problem is that they are motivated only by selfishness. They really do know right from wrong by the time they are mature, and they have chosen wrong with their eyes open, so to speak. |
I'd be curious to have you explore this "theology"/academic high ground more.
The Dark Side is more powerful in terms of making it easier for someone to affect their environment. However, turning to the Dark Side also means losing control over oneself. If 'power' is the ability to do what you choose to do, then what you gain on the ability side, you lose on the 'choice' side of the power equation.
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The Sith have a good understanding of how the galaxy works. They also seem to have a better understanding of psychology and how the force works. They recognize passionate feelings as valid, and I think also understand that emotions like anger and jealousy aren't in themselves right or wrong, but what they do with them is. They just don't care that what they're doing is wrong.
Now they aren't entirely wise and they unanimously underestimate the danger of pride, and I agree a selfish path does not lead to freedom. They do have more raw ability to get stuff done, though. What that stuff ends up being is a different matter.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | The Jedi are kind and selfless idiots. They spend most of their time generating pointless ethical rules and dogma that cloud real moral judgement an generally make life harder. They don't really understand the foundational nature of right and wrong and easily get confused. They do press through it all, though, by treating others well, or at least as well as they know how. |
You are right, we disagree. Yes, the Jedi spend more time contemplating morals, but that is because they know that their force powers lend themselves toward the danger of losing control over themselves and their actions.
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They contemplate, but they don't apply. They have a towering system of theoretical ethics, but that theoretical ethical system interferes with practical morality. You see, the Jedi code doesn't seem to seek to confront temptation, but only to avoid or even ignore it. That is not a system that works. | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | As such neither the Sith, nor the Jedi are right, and neither group will become so. The Sith won't give up the selfish path they chose, and the Jedi associate Sith understanding of morality and absolutes with those mean dark Jedi that get together and cause trouble every few thousand years. |
I think this touches the other debate that Whill brings in. I guess it depends on what sort of story you want to tell. Star Wars, as written, is about good and evil. I suppose you can decide to create a morally neutral view of the dichotomy if you want to - kind of like order vs. chaos, or something of that nature. I certainly think that we have too much of this good vs. evil thinking in the real world and I think that is, partially, a function of the sorts of stories we tell. But, does that mean that I'm going to tweak Star Wars into a more relativistic story... I'm not so sure. |
Whill did make good points!
I see Star Wars as the only kind of story that really resonates with me. A story about grey people living in a black and white world. Some are light grey, some are dark grey. Some see well enough to resolve the differences between black and white. Some just see big light blobs and big dark blobs. (Han Solo shoots at the dark blobs.  )
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | The Sith have a good understanding of how the galaxy works. They also seem to have a better understanding of psychology and how the force works. They recognize passionate feelings as valid, and I think also understand that emotions like anger and jealousy aren't in themselves right or wrong, but what they do with them is. They just don't care that what they're doing is wrong.
Now they aren't entirely wise and they unanimously underestimate the danger of pride, and I agree a selfish path does not lead to freedom. They do have more raw ability to get stuff done, though. What that stuff ends up being is a different matter. |
I see what you're saying. Star Wars is indeed written from the idea that rationality and emotion are at odds with one another. Behavioral science, however, disagrees with that. The NY Times columnist David Brooks (with whom I frequently disagree) has a book out about it that translates it into layman's terms. Anyway, the gist of it is that our emotions help us make decisions that our imperfect conscious rationale cannot handle due to complexity. Without emotions, we have a much harder time deciding what we want.
So, I guess what you're saying is that the Sith have read David Brooks.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | They contemplate, but they don't apply. They have a towering system of theoretical ethics, but that theoretical ethical system interferes with practical morality. You see, the Jedi code doesn't seem to seek to confront temptation, but only to avoid or even ignore it. That is not a system that works. |
But is that really a function of Jedi philosophy? The Jedi from eps I, II, & III are IMO basically what you say they are. However, I would attribute their operational lethargy not to their philosophy but to their having become an entrenched bureaucracy. The rules by which they seem to be bound do not necessarily come from their philosophy, but from their political context.
So, maybe the Prophesy was right; Vader brought balance to the Force by getting rid of the dead wood and having the institution of the Jedi refreshed by putting someone who didn't know what he was doing (Luke) have to figure out what the Jedi should be about from scratch.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | Whill did make good points!
I see Star Wars as the only kind of story that really resonates with me. A story about grey people living in a black and white world. Some are light grey, some are dark grey. Some see well enough to resolve the differences between black and white. Some just see big light blobs and big dark blobs. (Han Solo shoots at the dark blobs. ) |
Given that you're here I certainly won't quibble with the notion that you find Star Wars compelling. But is it really a story about gray people in a B/W world. Sure, there's Han, and there's Lando, but for the rest it's a triad of heroes (Leia, Luke, Obi-Wan, etc.) villains (the Emperor, Vader, Tarkin, Jabba), and bystanders (C3PO). Given that Han is certainly not the main character, and Lando less so, this isn't a story about a gray person in a B/W world.
Now, is a story about a grey or B/W person in a grey world more compelling - I seriously doubt it - but I do think that a predominance of B/W teach us to have false narratives about what the real world is like running in our head. But... I suppose we're here to talk about Star Wars, and not about my social philosophies.  |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
I see what you're saying. Star Wars is indeed written from the idea that rationality and emotion are at odds with one another. Behavioral science, however, disagrees with that. The NY Times columnist David Brooks (with whom I frequently disagree) has a book out about it that translates it into layman's terms. Anyway, the gist of it is that our emotions help us make decisions that our imperfect conscious rationale cannot handle due to complexity. Without emotions, we have a much harder time deciding what we want.
So, I guess what you're saying is that the Sith have read David Brooks.
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Well, sort of. That's certainly not all of it. David Brooks (I suspect) doesn't factor the Force into much of his rationale. Also, emotions put weight behind rational decisions and keep us going when we want to quit. | Ben Hur wrote: | Hate keeps a man alive. It gives him strength.
-Quintus Arius |
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | They contemplate, but they don't apply. They have a towering system of theoretical ethics, but that theoretical ethical system interferes with practical morality. You see, the Jedi code doesn't seem to seek to confront temptation, but only to avoid or even ignore it. That is not a system that works. |
But is that really a function of Jedi philosophy? The Jedi from eps I, II, & III are IMO basically what you say they are. However, I would attribute their operational lethargy not to their philosophy but to their having become an entrenched bureaucracy. The rules by which they seem to be bound do not necessarily come from their philosophy, but from their political context.
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They seemed to have much communication between even the lowest and highest levels when Yoda was teaching younglings. That's not a trait common to entrenched bureaucracies. They couldn't have romantic relationships. That doesn't strike me as something arising from the political context.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | Whill did make good points!
I see Star Wars as the only kind of story that really resonates with me. A story about grey people living in a black and white world. Some are light grey, some are dark grey. Some see well enough to resolve the differences between black and white. Some just see big light blobs and big dark blobs. (Han Solo shoots at the dark blobs. ) |
Given that you're here I certainly won't quibble with the notion that you find Star Wars compelling. But is it really a story about gray people in a B/W world. Sure, there's Han, and there's Lando, but for the rest it's a triad of heroes (Leia, Luke, Obi-Wan, etc.) villains (the Emperor, Vader, Tarkin, Jabba), and bystanders (C3PO). Given that Han is certainly not the main character, and Lando less so, this isn't a story about a gray person in a B/W world.
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Anakin/Vader is dark grey: he had done many good things and many bad things by the time he died. Luke is light grey: he was impulsive and didn't listen to his elders, and had at least one major brush with the dark side. Plus he kissed his sister. No one in the movies is all black or all white.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | But my wife, who had never seen any Star Wars before she met me, watched the movies with me in chronological order... |
This just occurred to me. So did she find Luke kissing his sister squicky? |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | Well, sort of. That's certainly not all of it. David Brooks (I suspect) doesn't factor the Force into much of his rationale. Also, emotions put weight behind rational decisions and keep us going when we want to quit. | Ben Hur wrote: | Hate keeps a man alive. It gives him strength.
-Quintus Arius |
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Quite so.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | They seemed to have much communication between even the lowest and highest levels when Yoda was teaching younglings. That's not a trait common to entrenched bureaucracies. They couldn't have romantic relationships. That doesn't strike me as something arising from the political context. |
Sure, but are these the problems that you're alluding to? I thought you were pointing to their inability to make efficient decisions. I'm not saying they were necessarily bureaucratic in their internal workings, but rather in their organizational risk-avoidance.
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Anakin/Vader is dark grey: he had done many good things and many bad things by the time he died. Luke is light grey: he was impulsive and didn't listen to his elders, and had at least one major brush with the dark side. Plus he kissed his sister. No one in the movies is all black or all white. |
Sure, Vader comes back to the light-side in a last-minute redemption, but I don't really think we're talking 'gray' in terms of moral relativism. It's about him going from Good(tm) to Evil(tm). It's about Luke being tempted by Evil(tm), but not giving in.
And kissing one's sister... that may just be common practice on Tatooine. You know, people don't get out much, there's a limited genepool to choose from... They may even play banjos when we're not looking. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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But on Tatooine it is called an electrobanjo. TPM had Duel of the Fates. If Episode IX had ever been made it would have featured Duel of the Electrobanjos.  |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | But on Tatooine it is called an electrobanjo. TPM had Duel of the Fates. If Episode IX had ever been made it would have featured Duel of the Electrobanjos. |
The Sith came down to Tatooine,
he was looking for a droid to steal.
He was in a bind,
'cos the Empire was running behind,
and he wasn't willing to make a deal.
8) |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
I thought you were pointing to their inability to make efficient decisions. I'm not saying they were necessarily bureaucratic in their internal workings, but rather in their organizational risk-avoidance.
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I was more pointing out their inability to make certain moral judgments, and to really understand right and wrong on an individual level. The Jedi "religion" is fundamentally similar to Earth's eastern relativist schools of thought. The problem is that Relativism and absolutes cannot coexist. The Jedi haven't reached this conclusion yet.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Anakin/Vader is dark grey: he had done many good things and many bad things by the time he died. Luke is light grey: he was impulsive and didn't listen to his elders, and had at least one major brush with the dark side. Plus he kissed his sister. No one in the movies is all black or all white. |
Sure, Vader comes back to the light-side in a last-minute redemption, but I don't really think we're talking 'gray' in terms of moral relativism. It's about him going from Good(tm) to Evil(tm). It's about Luke being tempted by Evil(tm), but not giving in.
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Luke really is the only Jedi though who doesn't have Jedi doctrine, which gives him a distinct advantage! He still isn't perfect, though. He kills the Vader ghost on Dagobah, which I don't personally think is an evil act, but the Force seems to. He cuts off real Vader's hand and is awful close to finishing him off (again the Force and I are at odds here.)
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
And kissing one's sister... that may just be common practice on Tatooine. You know, people don't get out much, there's a limited genepool to choose from... They may even play banjos when we're not looking. |
Which brings us to the question of whether the "moisture" farmers are making water, or something else...
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10438
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | But my wife, who had never seen any Star Wars before she met me, watched the movies with me in chronological order... |
This just occurred to me. So did she find Luke kissing his sister squicky? |
No. She knew they didn't know they were siblings, and it was obvious to her that Leia was only kissing Luke to make Han jealous.
I never told my wife about the part of the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye where Luke and Leia are camping out on a planet and Luke is embarrased to wake up near Leia with morning wood. Now that's squicky!
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