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Whill
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 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Gamemaster Grenade 101? |
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My thread topic post being updated by my quoted text below.
| Dredwulf60 wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
As a 10 year later update to this thread, grenades do appear in both Solo and Rogue One, which are both in my personal canon. But even 10 years ago, I never really meant that grenades do not literally exist in my SWU. I see them as very rare in the classic era, meaning that their scarcity in my game will not be viewed as a discontinuity.
So what happened after Rogue One to make them rare? In RO, Vader said that the Senate was informed that Jedha City was destroyed in a mining accident. What was mined there? The magic lightsaber/death star crystals were taken out of the Temple of the Whills. Maybe the main ingredient in grenades was mined under and around Jedha City. Boom. Grenades could have a reason to suddenly become rare, and Imperial stores of them are more rationed out so they are no longer issued to every stormtrooper. Maybe the whole planet of Jedha had the ingredient and was overmined over the millennia, so the ingredient was becoming more rare already. Maybe the Jedha City area, having its holy status, was protected from mining until the Imperial days, and the galaxy would have had years of grenades until Jedha City was destroyed. Maybe Tarkin's overconfidence that there would be no shortage of grenade explosive was a weakness that cost the galaxy grenades being plentiful. For whatever reason, grenades don't appear in the classic films, the era my game takes place. |
This strikes me as odd. It's your own head canon in your own game, but I was thinking, just because you don't see them on screen wouldn't necessarily make them rare. That kinda goes hand in hand with the discussion of the alien stereotypes.
Despite the title, 'Star WARS', we rarely see real battles in the classic Star Wars. Sure we have the Hoth attack and the skirmish around the Endor shield generator, but it's generally more like heroic adventures happening with the actual Wars happening as a backdrop.
If we saw more actual warfare battles on screen, my conjecture is that we'd see more hand grenades. 
As a tangent, how many grenades do we see used in the Indiana Jones movies? I can't think of any off the top of my head (there's likely one or two though, but surely not many.) Meanwhile the backdrop of 2 of the movies is the run-up to WWII with Nazi soldiers, who we know were issued hand grenades. |
I thought I was extremely explicit in 2011, and your reply strikes me as oddly removed from the original context of this post which explicitly refers back to it.
I never said that grenades were rare in the classic era because you don't see them on screen in the CT. There are a lot of things in my game that are not seen on screen. Grenades are rare in my campaign setting because I don't like grenades, for the reason I stated in 2011. I make them rare by my authority as master of my SWU. Not seeing them in the CT was only my justification for why my choice is not a discontinuity, not the cause of my choice. Is that more clear?
I am an overall excellent gamemaster. Immodest as it sounds, I'm one of the best GMs I have ever encountered in my life. One of the qualities that make me a good GM is that I am very conscious of my few deficiencies and plan my game around them. One of my deficiencies in my teen years was handling grenades, so I mostly stopped having them in the game. I was man enough to admit my undeveloped ability to handle grenades in the game back in 2011. Does that make me odd? I have played with other GMs that also don't have grenades in their Star Wars game, so I doubt I am the only one deficient in this respect.
One thing I asked for in 2011 that I have still never seen is a 'Gamemaster Grenade 101.' If I am so odd in my inability to manage grenades, then there should be a lot of grenade experts here. I need something more than what RAW tells us. As stated, my issues were (1) grenades in the hands of the PCs being too deadly for the enemies thus making the challenge level too easy, and (2) grenades in the hands of the enemies being too deadly for the PCs. I need to know how to balance enemy encounters with PC grenades, and how to balance enemy grenades with PCs. I need this detailed "how-to" for GMs for me to consider having more grenades in my game, but I doubt I'm the only one. Please feel free to reply with the 101 here or start a new thread with it. Thank you.
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: The Grenade Thread |
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This post below is the closest anyone has come to what I asked for in 2011 and the previous post...
| Bren wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I agree that it sounds more Star Warsy, but even Star Warsifying grenades in this way still won't help with my inadequacy to effectively manage game balance with respect to grenade usage... |
We didn't use grenades a lot. The only problems I remember encountering with them were the following:
(1) Stormtrooper armor provides +2D protection against physical damage, so stormies with 2D strength are typically only stunned by a point blank grenade hit. Superior stormies often get no effect from a point blank hit.
(2) Similarly high strength alien characters often fully soak a grenade hit. I recall a character I ran a few times who had 5D STR, if he used a FP he could totally shrug off multiple grenade hits. We actually joked about him running up to Imperials with a grenade in hand (though I never actually did that). Note this is really just another version of the blaster proof Wookiee problem.
(3) Missing the target and random locations.
Possible solutions:
(A) Use energy grenades. This more or less solves (1) since now the STR 2D stormtrooper has only a +1D for energy damage and should be wounded on average. Which seems a reasonable result for a grenade hit to a man in heavy armor.
(B) Treat any point blank or close range grenade hit as automatically stunning the target (or causing the target to lose an action as if wounded) due to shock, concussion, noise, glare, whiting out the MTAS visor, or whatever. This somewhat fixes both (1) and (2).
(C) Treat any point blank hit that a character is not trying to dodge as doing double damage. This improves both (1) and (2) and mostly counters the FP use by low-med high STR characters. There may still be a problem for characters with high STR using a FP, but at least they should be trying to dodge in case they get a bad roll.
(D) Treat wound damage more like 1E so any roll of damage that is >= 1/2 the soak roll does Stun damage. Like (B) but this somewhat fixes all damage vs high STR characters.
(E) Combine two or more rules. Personally I favor using (A), (C), and (D).
(F) Players and NPCs can somewhat solve (3) by not tossing grenades if their skill is below say 4D or so and/or count on having to spend a CP or two to ensure you hit the right target. Like all explosives, people that are unpracticed should probably find other toys to play with.
(G) As a GM, consider over ruling the random rule by just having a missed grenade throw detonate more or less safely between, beyond, or to the side of the intended target. After all, most of us don't cause a failed blaster shot to randomly hit someone other than the target. Save the random determination for a complication on the wild die along with a missed roll. Of course a complication on the wild die with a successful roll probably means the target has plenty of time to throw the grenade back.
Thoughts? |
Thoughts?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: The Grenade Thread |
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| Quote: | | (A) Use energy grenades. This more or less solves (1) since now the STR 2D stormtrooper has only a +1D for energy damage and should be wounded on average. Which seems a reasonable result for a grenade hit to a man in heavy armor. |
I like this. Swap out any mention of Frag Grenades for Proton Grenades, then reserve Frag Grenades for when you go to low-tech planets.
| Quote: | | (B) Treat any point blank or close range grenade hit as automatically stunning the target (or causing the target to lose an action as if wounded) due to shock, concussion, noise, glare, whiting out the MTAS visor, or whatever. This somewhat fixes both (1) and (2). |
Worth mentioning that the Stormtrooper helmet has polarized lenses to resist flash-blinding, which sounds something like what you're talking about here.
Also, I have my suggested "Less Than" Damaged rule, where characters can still be physically affected even without taking lasting damage. Even if it's not a rule you want to implement generally, it might still be a good fit for grenades.
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lecher000
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Pretty sure Luke threw a grenade right into the AT-AT in Empire Strikes Back to destroy it from the inside. He pulls out an explosive and throws it inside, with a timed delay on it. That's essentially the definition of a grenade.
There's also nothing saying that Thermal Detonators are anything but grenades, as their shape and hand-held activation seems to indicate they are absolutely grenades. On top of this, the original comic books from the 70's had plenty of grenades in them.
As for them not being "star warsy", I don't know what to say other then that's your opinion. It seems like one of the most important things infantry in the Star Wars universe could have are grenades or thrown explosives in general, especially for irregulars which rely on ambush tactics.
I can understand making grenades extremely rare though, I mean how often have you ever come across a grenade in your life? Maybe if you're inside a rebel base and have access to the armory you'll get some, or if you hijack an armored Imperial transport or break into an Imperial Armory you'll find some, but yea, grenades should not be flying everywhere or even easy to attain. Even the bounty hunters in Empire Strikes Back aren't carrying grenades. But then again, there's numerous criminal networks you might be able to get access to using Streetwise to purchase them...Overall it depends on your play style and your characters. I could see reasons for having plenty of grenades and have very few grenades.
Personally, the grenades I have seen, other than Thermal Detonators, they're really puny-weak. A single fragmentation grenade does as much as a blaster bolt from Han Solo's gun. That's insane for something that has enough force to sever your limbs and turn your rib-cage inside out. Some of the house-ruled grenades are a little better, but not by much. You could easily fix this by making all explosives have a minimum of Speeder scale damage. I liked Bren's idea of having characters still being affected by being hit even if they take no damage. Giving them a penalty to their actions like a increasing all action difficulties by one level if they suffer a direct hit but no lasting injuries if the damage is at least 10 away. |
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Whill
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Something I've been thinking about is that, in most cases, grenades aren't going to be effective if a group of enemies takes even basic precautions. Unless conditions require a group of enemies to be packed together (in a corridor or a trench or something), most military units maintain space between each other specifically so they won't all be caught in the blast radius of a grenade / mine / artillery strike. That's something you as a GM can take advantage of to limit a grenade's usefulness to specific circumstances.
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lecher000
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Do you have any game balance suggestions, for GMs planning encounters involving grenades on either side? |
Well one of the primary concerns when throwing a grenade is that they may throw it back, so if your players are lobbing grenades like they're discarded lobster shells at a buffet, you may want to have a house rule that allows a soldier a reaction to kick it or throw it back at them.
SWD6 is supposed to be lethal so making grenades more dangerous so that they feel lethal would also be a step in the right direction. Bren's shellshocked idea has the best overall application without having to change the core rules and instead apply more of a roleplaying-oriented effect on characters who survive close-proximity grenades. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:23 am Post subject: thermal detonators |
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| lecher000 wrote: | | Pretty sure Luke threw a grenade right into the AT-AT in Empire Strikes Back to destroy it from the inside. He pulls out an explosive and throws it inside, with a timed delay on it. That's essentially the definition of a grenade. |
Luke threw some explosive device into the AT-AT. Canon says it was a thermal detonator. Looking at the effect, an AT-AT (with armor "too strong for blasters") has massive explosions inside that take it out, so I do not think it was a mere grenade...
| Quote: | | There's also nothing saying that Thermal Detonators are anything but grenades, as their shape and hand-held activation seems to indicate they are absolutely grenades...Personally, the grenades I have seen, other than Thermal Detonators, they're really puny-weak |
There is something that says thermal detonators are more than grenades. WEG, the skeleton upon which the EU was built, does. The respective damage codes differentiates them drastically. The name "thermal detonator" strongly implies a particularly high-powered explosive, so it fits. WEG, and the EU fluff that came from WEG (and the canon fluff that came from the EU) all says they are different, while there isn't anything saying thermal detonators are merely grenades.
But this thermal detonator discussion is a tangent (not that we don't have those here) because I never had any issues with thermal detonators. And this thread was never about drastically changing the WEG/EU/Canon canon for thermal detonators or explosive grenades. It was about trying to work with it.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:06 am Post subject: The Grenade Thread |
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| lecher000 wrote: | | As for them not being "star warsy", I don't know what to say other then that's your opinion. |
A couple things. (1) Yes it is an opinion, but that opinion is based primarily on the undeniable objective fact that there are no grenades shows in the CT. My opinion is a natural reaction. (2) That opinion has softened somewhat since 2011 because we saw grenades in Rogue One.
| Quote: | | It seems like one of the most important things infantry in the Star Wars universe could have are grenades or thrown explosives in general, especially for irregulars which rely on ambush tactics. |
OK, in your SWU maybe. In a hypothetical galaxy where explosive grenades are rare, they wouldn't be the norm for infantries so they wouldn't be missed. They would make do without them. The real world had infantry before it had grenades, so it is not like the very definition of infantry must involve grenades. Space Opera is not so based on the modern world.
| Quote: | | I can understand making grenades extremely rare though, I mean how often have you ever come across a grenade in your life? Maybe if you're inside a rebel base and have access to the armory you'll get some, or if you hijack an armored Imperial transport or break into an Imperial Armory you'll find some, but yea, grenades should not be flying everywhere or even easy to attain. Even the bounty hunters in Empire Strikes Back aren't carrying grenades. But then again, there's numerous criminal networks you might be able to get access to using Streetwise to purchase them...Overall it depends on your play style and your characters. I could see reasons for having plenty of grenades and have very few grenades. |
Right.
| Quote: | | Personally, the grenades I have seen, other than Thermal Detonators, they're really puny-weak. A single fragmentation grenade does as much as a blaster bolt from Han Solo's gun. That's insane for something that has enough force to sever your limbs and turn your rib-cage inside out. Some of the house-ruled grenades are a little better, but not by much. You could easily fix this by making all explosives have a minimum of Speeder scale damage. I liked Bren's idea of having characters still being affected by being hit even if they take no damage. Giving them a penalty to their actions like a increasing all action difficulties by one level if they suffer a direct hit but no lasting injuries if the damage is at least 10 away. |
Turning rib cages inside out is not Star Wars, but "killed" results (that aren't necessarily quite so graphic) are possible in the game. If an average sentient has 2D strength and they take the full brunt of a grenade (5D), do the math. That could be bad.
| lecher000 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Do you have any game balance suggestions, for GMs planning encounters involving grenades on either side? |
Well one of the primary concerns when throwing a grenade is that they may throw it back, so if your players are lobbing grenades like they're discarded lobster shells at a buffet, you may want to have a house rule that allows a soldier a reaction to kick it or throw it back at them.
SWD6 is supposed to be lethal so making grenades more dangerous so that they feel lethal would also be a step in the right direction. Bren's shellshocked idea has the best overall application without having to change the core rules and instead apply more of a roleplaying-oriented effect on characters who survive close-proximity grenades. |
The lethality of grenades is part of the problem. Making them harsher will not solve the problem I had.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Something I've been thinking about is that, in most cases, grenades aren't going to be effective if a group of enemies takes even basic precautions. Unless conditions require a group of enemies to be packed together (in a corridor or a trench or something), most military units maintain space between each other specifically so they won't all be caught in the blast radius of a grenade / mine / artillery strike. That's something you as a GM can take advantage of to limit a grenade's usefulness to specific circumstances. |
The problem I ran into with grenades were in Rebel Spec Ops campaigns, a bounty hunter campaign, and a smuggler campaign, not military campaigns which I do not run. And in my campaigns, the PCs are often in places with a lot of tight quarters, such as space stations and busy cities.
I appreciate all the suggestions. Anything is better than nothing, and it may help others that don't have the same issue as me. But I still don't feel I am getting enough of what I need to manage encounters as a GM. It may be that it comes so natural to other GMs that it just works out for them without them putting a lot of thought into it, so they do not know the terms to put it in for my benefit. When I posed this question on Facebook, what I learned is that many GMs have drastically different ways on handling grenades in their games, and most of the advice seemed finely tuned to their individual GM styles.
I need GM advice, such as numbers of grenades on each side, attribute and skill levels, etc. The in-universe tactics are helpful but they should vary depending on who is throwing the grenade, so that alone is not an immediate solution as to the problem. Grenades have a lot more randomness involved than blasters. You can't hit multiple targets with a single blaster bolt, but you can hit multiple targets with a single grenade attack. A grenade lobbed at a side of a battle can cause an extra dodge roll that round, MAPing multiple PCs further. Even if only one character suffers the full damage, a party spread out can still suffer lower damage depending on range from the center of the blast, so one attack can still cause multiple wounds on the enemy side. Even extra stuns on a side can make a big difference in the flow of a battle. And then a failed grenade roll can bounce back at the thrower and hurt himself and/or his side in the battle. Not to mention someone possibly throwing the grenade back. There is a signifiant additional level of randomness with grenades that makes them harder for me to plan on.
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lecher000
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:11 am Post subject: Re: The Grenade Thread |
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| Quote: | | A couple things. (1) Yes it is an opinion, but that opinion is based primarily on the undeniable objective fact that there are no grenades shows in the CT. My opinion is a natural reaction. (2) That opinion has softened somewhat since 2011 because we saw grenades in Rogue One. |
Well Wookiepedia calls Thermal Detonator's a "Type of grenade", so that's good enough for me.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Grenade
| Quote: | | so it is not like the very definition of infantry must involve grenades. Space Opera is not so based on the modern world. |
Well I'm not denying that.
| Quote: | | Turning rib cages inside out is not Star Wars, but "killed" results (that aren't necessarily quite so graphic) are possible in the game. If an average sentient has 2D strength and they take the full brunt of a grenade (5D), do the math. That could be bad. |
Turning rib cages inside out, Luke's parents being vaporized into charred burning skeletons, eh, it's a toss-up really. Either way I was referring to the effects of an actual grenade, not anything that actually appeared in star wars which, if we want to get technical, vibroblades never appeared and could be considered "not Star Wars", along with a plethora of made-up creatures in the rulebooks. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Owen and Beru were killed offscreen. I never had a problem with grenade effects offscreen. We are talking about grenades doing damage in RPG combat rounds actively being played out. My point was in response to your suggestion that if anything, grenades are not damaging enough in the game. The setting isn't real world, so we don't need gritty real world effects of grenades as a strong driver of how they should work is Star Wars. Game mechanically, they can still "kill" without any rib cages being turned inside out.
And nothing says Owen and Beru were killed by grenades. They were killed by flamethrowers, and the smoking charred skeletons seems consistent with flame throwers kept on a body until most of the flesh was burned off. And since you brought up this tangent, I'll say there is more filmic evidence of flame throwers than grenades in the CT.
Showing Owen and Beru being burned alive would be too graphic for Star Wars, so thankfully that was offscreen. RPG combat is roleplayed out, not described later. I never had any trouble balancing encounters with flamethrowers, but they are not common in my game.
Lightsabers are the ultimate melee weapon and iconic in Star Wars. Like grenades, vibroblades are also not that starwarsy and they are fairly rare in my game too. But there is a key difference. Melee weapons do appear in the CT, and several of them could be vibroweapons because there isn't anything definitively showing they aren't vibro. And I never had a problem balancing vibroweapons anyway, only grenades.
All these other weapons being brought up do not address the ask here. I'd like some specific advice such as numbers of grenades on each side, attribute and skill levels, etc. I need help balancing my encounters to my PCs so neither side has it too easy or too hard. I do not have a problem with thermal detonators, flamethrowers, or vibroweapons. I do not have a problem with stun grenades or smoke grenades. Only explosive grenades. Thanks.
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lecher000
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Owen and Beru were killed offscreen. I never had a problem with grenade effects offscreen. We are talking about grenades doing damage in RPG combat rounds actively being played out. My point was in response to your suggestion that if anything, grenades are not damaging enough in the game. The setting isn't real world, so we don't need gritty real world effects of grenades as a strong driver of how they should work is Star Wars. Game mechanically, they can still "kill" without any rib cages being turned inside out. |
Right, but my statement on grenades was more hyperbole than actual implementation. If they end up being blown backwards with smoke and ripped up clothes and armor that's just as fine IMO. Extreme violence should be saved generally for more dramatic moments.
| Quote: | | And nothing says Owen and Beru were killed by grenades. They were killed by flamethrowers, and the smoking charred skeletons seems consistent with flame throwers kept on a body until most of the flesh was burned off. |
Yea, they were probably killed by flamethrowers if anything, at least that's the only thing I can imagine turning them into that state, but then again, that raises the question "are flame throwers star wars" since we never see them either.
| Quote: | | And since you brought up this tangent, I'll say there is more filmic evidence of flame throwers than grenades in the CT. |
Well we never see flame throwers, we absolutely see spherical, hand-held, explosive devices, as described in the canon as being "Grenades". That much is undebatable.
| Quote: | | All these other weapons being brought up do not address the ask here. I'd like some specific advice such as numbers of grenades on each side, attribute and skill levels, etc. I need help balancing my encounters to my PCs so neither side has it too easy or too hard. I do not have a problem with thermal detonators, flamethrowers, or vibroweapons. I do not have a problem with stun grenades or smoke grenades. Only explosive grenades. Thanks. |
Well the Empire will obviously have wider availability of grenades, and they would use them in urban and jungle fighting mostly. If you're including "explosive" grenades but want to know how to limit them, I think it's already been well-enough discussed. Make them illegal to use out-side of Imperial military, make them cost two to three times as much, make them a lot more available to Imperial troopers, and include shell-shocked effects for if they're caught within the blast radius, suffering a -1D to all dexterity skills until their next turn if they soak the damage but suffer a direct hit (within the initial blast radius). |
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| lecher000 wrote: | | Right, but my statement on grenades was more hyperbole than actual implementation... |
Hyperbole. Roger that.
| Quote: | | Yea, they were probably killed by flamethrowers if anything, at least that's the only thing I can imagine turning them into that state, but then again, that raises the question "are flame throwers star wars" since we never see them either. |
Fluff states they were flamethrowers, and in the film we see effects of the only things we can imagine causing them, flamethrowers. (And as an added bonus, the reboot of ANH actually shows the flamethrowers.) I personally have no question that flamethrowers seem star wars enough, but if you don't, that is your prerogative. You are free to come up some alternative to explain what we see at the Lars homestead, alter the scene for your own head canon, or even remove ANH completely from your personal canon. Whatever works for you.
| Quote: | | we absolutely see spherical, hand-held, explosive devices, as described in the canon as being "Grenades". That much is undebatable. |
No. We see what fluff defines as thermal detonators, and fluff describes grenades which are differentiated from thermal detonators. Maybe we should just agree to disagree because flamethrowers and thermal detonators seem pointless to what this thread is really about.
What is your overall point here? Are you taking personal offense by me saying regular explosive grenades do not seem starwarsy to me, or that I personally made grenades rare in my SWU? Our respective SWUs don't have to match. I have no problem whatsoever with you or everyone else having a plethora of grenades in your game. My statements were never meant to be taken as arguments for the way other people should do things. They were only describing my SWU and my reasoning behind my choices.
| Quote: | | Well the Empire will obviously have wider availability of grenades, and they would use them in urban and jungle fighting mostly. If you're including "explosive" grenades but want to know how to limit them, I think it's already been well-enough discussed. Make them illegal to use out-side of Imperial military, make them cost two to three times as much, make them a lot more available to Imperial troopers, and include shell-shocked effects for if they're caught within the blast radius, suffering a -1D to all dexterity skills until their next turn if they soak the damage but suffer a direct hit (within the initial blast radius). |
Thanks. Yes, limiting grenades has been well discussed and I don't need help with limiting grenades (but others might benefit). I've been limiting them for 30 years. What I have asked for is help balancing the encounters from a GM encounter design perspective. Given PC numbers, attribute and skill levels, and grenade numbers, how exactly to counter that in designing the NPC party to prevent the randomness from grenades causing the problems I encountered.
But I'm thinking this is an impossible question. It must not be something that is quantifiable from one GM for another. It must be pure instinct, and some GMs just have it. I do have a lot of intuition for other things so that makes some sense to me, but I do not have intuition for this. Or maybe a lot of other GMs just have a greater tolerance for randomness and sudden drastic shifts in challenge level that come with grenades. Oh well.
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lecher000
Ensign
Joined: 13 Oct 2021
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
Fluff states they were flamethrowers, and in the film we see effects of the only things we can imagine causing them, flamethrowers. |
Right, but we also see Luke throw an explosive into an AT-AT, the immediate effects, and the after-effects of it. This is all getting to besides the point.
| Quote: | | What is your overall point here? Are you taking personal offense by me saying regular explosive grenades do not seem starwarsy to me, or that I personally made grenades rare in my SWU? Our respective SWUs don't have to match. I have no problem whatsoever with you or everyone else having a plethora of grenades in your game. My statements were never meant to be taken as arguments for the way other people should do things. They were only describing my SWU and my reasoning behind my choices. |
I wouldn't take it personally, Star Wars isn't my life, or even something that I'm the "biggest" fan of in the world, I'm just trying to figure out the exact reasoning behind why you specifically call out grenades in particular as not being "Star warsy", since it's the first time I've heard this argument. I originally thought it was common understanding that thermal detonators were grenades. Whether or not they're star warsy is irrelevant, since there's lots of things that everyone views in some way as not being star warsy, even in the original films themselves like the Ewoks, being goofy giant teddy bears, or Dexter Jetster and the 50's diner in the prequels. Overall I view Star Wars as a setting, not a style. We've seen that it can work like this with Rogue One (espionage thriller) and the Mandalorian (western) and the Clone Wars cartoon (kids action cartoon), creating stories of completely different tones and styles and making them work very well, so what may be seen as "star warsy" because of tone and style in one instance may be completely out-of-place in another.
| Quote: | | Thanks. Yes, limiting grenades has been well discussed and I don't need help with limiting grenades (but others might benefit). I've been limiting them for 30 years. What I have asked for is help balancing the encounters from a GM encounter design perspective. Given PC numbers, attribute and skill levels, and grenade numbers, how exactly to counter that in designing the NPC party to prevent the randomness from grenades causing the problems I encountered. |
Having been a GM for the last 20 years in general for RPG's, there is no cure-all for that. It's just another piece of equipment that adds to the randomness factor of the game. It would be like asking how to limit any weapon.
| Quote: | | But I'm thinking this is an impossible question. It must not be something that is quantifiable from one GM for another. It must be pure instinct, and some GMs just have it. I do have a lot of intuition for other things so that makes some sense to me, but I do not have intuition for this. Or maybe a lot of other GMs just have a greater tolerance for randomness and sudden drastic shifts in challenge level that come with grenades. Oh well. |
I've learned from being a GM that players will tend to go with the easiest route available, whether it's good or evil. If they have a history of getting into combats with large groups of enemies, grenades are going to spring to mind to force them to spread out so they can pick them off easier, if not take out multiple enemies at once.
If they're using grenades in public areas, you could warn them that using grenades will give them a dark side point for hurting or endangering innocents. The psychology of deterring players from using grenades varies so wildly that giving an accurate answer is almost pointless since I've had to use various strategies for various different player groups. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10434
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:10 am Post subject: |
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lecher000, you and others have added a lot of comments in this thread (and other threads) I feel could helpful to GMs managing grenades in general. Thank you for that.
| lecher000 wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | What is your overall point here? Are you taking personal offense by me saying regular explosive grenades do not seem starwarsy to me, or that I personally made grenades rare in my SWU? Our respective SWUs don't have to match. I have no problem whatsoever with you or everyone else having a plethora of grenades in your game. My statements were never meant to be taken as arguments for the way other people should do things. They were only describing my SWU and my reasoning behind my choices. |
I'm just trying to figure out the exact reasoning behind why you specifically call out grenades in particular as not being "Star warsy", since it's the first time I've heard this argument... |
You quote me clearly saying I am not arguing a position, and your response is to state I am arguing. Again, that was not an argument from me.
I think I see what is going on here now. You and I are not even having the same conversation. You are arguing against a position I do not even have, which means either (1) you are arguing for the sake of arguing which is not acceptable here, or (2) you have a gross misunderstanding of all my posts in this entire thread. As incredible as it seems, you are new here so I will try to presume the second. Let me try to break down my posts here.
* Grenades are objectively a part of the WEG Star Wars RPG, and always have been.
* As a GM, I personally don't like explosive grenades in my game. This is a statement of personal preference, not an argument against them.
* The reasons I offered for my personal feeling are: (1) My own failures as a GM at managing game balance with explosive grenades, and (2) I quote the first page: they just don't seem "Star Warsy" to me. I did not posit that grenades were objectively not starwarsy. It is a matter of my own personal likes and dislikes only.
* Exact reasoning for my personal feeling? There aren't any exact reasons and doesn't have to be. But I'm guessing I feel that way because grenades weren't in the CT, and on the first page I even speculated that maybe my failures with grenades in the game were subconsciously influencing my feeling. 10 years later I still think that is possible.
* My solution to my failures was to make grenades rare in my game. Grenades as defined by WEG never appeared in the CT, and I don't run outright military campaigns, so grenades weren't really missed.
If you feel grenades are starwarsy and/or you have a lot of grenades in your game, great! I hope grenades make your game more fun. If there is still any confusion, please reread this thread before replying.
| lecher000 wrote: | | ...understanding that thermal detonators were grenades. |
| An author of dictionary.com wrote: | | grenade: a small shell containing an explosive and thrown by hand or fired from a rifle or launching device. |
Next, look in the Explosives section of the Equipment Cost Chart in The Star Wars Sourcebook (2e) on p.100. There are nine items listed. "Grenades 1,R Cost 200 Damage 5D" is the first entry. The last entry is "Thermal Detonators 2,X Cost 2000 Damage 10D". These are clearly two different things. There is a big difference in the name, availability, cost, and damage code. Finally, I quote from TSWSb p.97:
| An author of The Star Wars Sourcebook wrote: | | Thermal detonators and mines are more powerful explosives, usually used for defensive set-ups and demolition of large buildings or emplacements. |
The rest of the fluff speaks of grenades and thermal detonators as different things. Thermal detonators are objectively not grenades. Thermal detonators are not usually thrown, while grenades are usually thrown or launched. Thermal detonators are demolitions. There are significant differences between grenades and thermal detonators.
| lecher000 wrote: | | ...it was common understanding that thermal detonators were grenades. |
I am well versed in Star Wars D6 fandom. I do not at all feel this is a common misunderstanding among fans of this game. It is extremely explicit that these are two different things, so it seems to me just the opposite is true: It is a common understanding that thermal detonators are not grenades.
| lecher000 wrote: | | I originally thought... |
I believe you. By stating "originally" and using the past tense, I hope you no longer have this misunderstanding. But if you wish to make grenades and thermal detonators be the same thing in your game, then go for it.
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