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RyanDarkstar
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Joined: 04 Dec 2014
Posts: 351
Location: Chambersburg, PA, USA, Earth
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 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | The premise of the original game's attribute/skill system was that humans are the baseline: a typical human has 2D in all attributes. So aliens could be stated out as inferior or superior based on that.
But humans in Star Wars fluff are typically described as having a high capacity for learning and being very adaptive. They are dexterous, fairly strong, perceptive, good pilots, technically abled, and generally uber to explain how they dominated the galaxy.
My reconciliation was to keep the game's system premise of 2D in all attributes being a galactic average, but change average humans to be 2D+1 in everything. I also raised their max attribute to 4D+1 in everything. Fluff honored. Yes, this makes typical humans a 14D species, above the galactic average. |
I never understood that if 2D was the baseline for humans, why Imperial Army/Navy and Rebel troopers were given stats under 2D. For example, the Imperial Army Trooper has Knowledge 1D+1, Mechanical 1D+1, and Technical 1D.
I understand these NPCs are fodder, but they're practically infirm. Of course, giving their stats a boost would make them better than Stormtroopers, which would then need tweaked, as they are elite troopers (except when engaging the main cast).
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10488
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| RyanDarkstar wrote: | | Whill wrote: | The premise of the original game's attribute/skill system was that humans are the baseline: a typical human has 2D in all attributes. So aliens could be stated out as inferior or superior based on that.
But humans in Star Wars fluff are typically described as having a high capacity for learning and being very adaptive. They are dexterous, fairly strong, perceptive, good pilots, technically abled, and generally uber to explain how they dominated the galaxy.
My reconciliation was to keep the game's system premise of 2D in all attributes being a galactic average, but change average humans to be 2D+1 in everything. I also raised their max attribute to 4D+1 in everything. Fluff honored. Yes, this makes typical humans a 14D species, above the galactic average. |
I never understood that if 2D was the baseline for humans, why Imperial Army/Navy and Rebel troopers were given stats under 2D. For example, the Imperial Army Trooper has Knowledge 1D+1, Mechanical 1D+1, and Technical 1D.
I understand these NPCs are fodder, but they're practically infirm. Of course, giving their stats a boost would make them better than Stormtroopers, which would then need tweaked, as they are elite troopers (except when engaging the main cast). |
That's a simple explanation. That is some WEG authors not really fully understanding the premise of the system, or not really bothering to go with it. Some of them thought all characters had to have exactly 12D or 18D in attributes, so a lot of mooks have less than 2D in some stats to give them above 2D in others. And that's how we got an 18D Greedo.
The D6 system is a genius concept. WEG did pretty well in RPG fluff writing (alien stereotypes aside), but failed in the full implementation of the game system, and in stat writing and editing. Let's be honest. There wasn't a lot of editing or guidance for those things. Writers only had to follow the formatting and make it look good, not necessarily make sense. It is up to the GMs to use what works and tweak what needs tweaking.
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MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | The D6 system is a genius concept. WEG did pretty well in RPG fluff writing (alien stereotypes aside), but failed in the full implementation of the game system, and in stat writing and editing. Let's be honest. There wasn't a lot of editing or guidance for those things. Writers only had to follow the formatting and make it look good, not necessarily make sense. It is up to the GMs to use what works and tweak what needs tweaking. |
And, one thing I point out is I have more RPG design experience than the designers of WEG d6 (among other systems) could have possibly had. I've got 30+ years of designing and modding RPGs, while, by the time R&E came out, RPGs had only really been a codified thing for 22 years.
BUT.
I have them as an example to work from. I have all the systems that have come after them as an example to work from. I think my work is pretty good, most of the time, but if I have seen far, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants, and that needs to be acknowledged when talking about the weaknesses of older systems.
With WEG Star Wars, I also have 25 years of additional Star Wars material to go on; WEG Star Wars is written from just the OT and a bit of the EU, whereas the prequels, sequels, and other media have provided a huge amount of other material, some with different design aesthetics than were common in the WEG era (q.v. use of the Force between the OT and PT).
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | And, one thing I point out is I have more RPG design experience than the designers of WEG d6 (among other systems) could have possibly had. I've got 30+ years of designing and modding RPGs, while, by the time R&E came out, RPGs had only really been a codified thing for 22 years... |
Could you post your RPG bibliography somewhere? I'd love to see it.
| MrNexx wrote: | ...I have them as an example to work from. I have all the systems that have come after them as an example to work from. I think my work is pretty good, most of the time, but if I have seen far, it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants, and that needs to be acknowledged when talking about the weaknesses of older systems.
With WEG Star Wars, I also have 25 years of additional Star Wars material to go on |
Exactly. This is why in 2021, RAW-supremacist attitudes are laughable. I have the benefit of decades with this game system that the original authors of this game didn't have, and I also don't have the deadlines and pressure to produce they did have. I don't have problems with the deficiencies of the original game as much as dealing with other gamers who argue against tweaks only because RAW. I'm one of the biggest SW D6 loyalists I know, and I know a lot. I revere the basis of the game and don't alter it just because I can. I only alter it when it is a clear improvement, and most of my alterations maintain the spirit of or have some anchor in base system. And a few of revisions have even been praised by original creators of the game, because making changes is in the spirit of the base system.
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MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | MrNexx wrote: | | And, one thing I point out is I have more RPG design experience than the designers of WEG d6 (among other systems) could have possibly had. I've got 30+ years of designing and modding RPGs, while, by the time R&E came out, RPGs had only really been a codified thing for 22 years... |
Could you post your RPG bibliography somewhere? I'd love to see it.
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Woof. That can get a little complicated. I'll start something up in Users/Forum Info, since you asked, but, like I said, there's 30+ years of material, not all of it published.
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TauntaunScout
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Being a strict Rules as Written adherent is pretty sad when the book specifically states you shouldn't be one. "First thing we do, kill all the rules lawyers". |
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TauntaunScout
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
That's a simple explanation. That is some WEG authors not really fully understanding the premise of the system, or not really bothering to go with it. Some of them thought all characters had to have exactly 12D or 18D in attributes, so a lot of mooks have less than 2D in some stats to give them above 2D in others.
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I never minded that. I mean most people are horribly incompetent at anything outside a very narrow set of skills. The problem is more that it changes a bit from sourcebook to sourcebook. So many of the miniatures troop stats were all over the board, it got a bit weird.
The D6 rules are a great concept for the PC's and evoking the feel of action movies, in which everyone in the cast has the hypothetical ability to improvise their way through almost any problem. As opposed to say, DBA which is a great ruleset for evoking the feeling you get when you read firsthand accounts of ancient and medieval battles. |
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I hacked into a Logray mini last night. Going to make my lightsaber wielding Ewok Shaman for SWMB.The miniatures game was decidedly anti-alien stereotyping (and said so). Also the miniatures game tended to load Heroes down generously with force powers and equipment that would be representative of a highly veteran PC, but which was almost necessary in a game that was 99% combat.
So I am making an Ewok template with a blaster pistol, and a Ewok Shaman template with Sense 3D and a lightsaber. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Matt_76
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I have NEVER come across or played RPGs with ANYONE who was 'RULES AS WRITTEN!!!!!' and I'm pretty thankful for that.
I mean....for Pete's sake, we're engaging in a game of 'make believe' in worlds where TIE Fighters ROAR in space while guys in robes casually spin around with LASER SWORDS THAT CAN CUT YOU IN HALF LIKE YOU'RE MADE OUT OF BUTTER...and oh by the way, also electrocute you with lighting out of their fingertips......and massive star-spanning Empires decide the best way to transport troops is in massive armored CAMELs.....
To all these RAW folks out there, wherever they may be, let me quote a great movie....."Lighten up Francis"
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10488
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt_76 wrote: | | I have NEVER come across or played RPGs with ANYONE who was 'RULES AS WRITTEN!!!!!' and I'm pretty thankful for that. |
I've encountered RAW supremacists online a lot more than in my personal life. They seem to venerate game authors as Moses because, how could Joe Blow GM possibly write anything better than professional game designers?! My only guess is these GMs lack the confidence to truly master their game. It's especially sad in this game which emphasizes that GMs should change things to suit their own games.
A few of my house rules have earned the approval of professional authors such as Peter Schweighofer and Bill Smith. The Rancor Pit shall always remain a safe haven for tinkerer GMs.
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Dredwulf60
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Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 911
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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As as someone who tinkers the game until it loses it's original shape and probable intent...
I gotta say that RAW is important. It gives new players something to agree to...some good solid framework for a communal language. It also allows for a common language between gaming groups.
Much of my 'house rules' are pretty much useless to anyone here because they deviate so far from RAW and depend on a house-of-cards structure of other interrelated house-rules. The whole mass generally must be used or at least known to make sense of the others.
So from that perspective, I have a healthy respect for the rules as written, if only because they serve as a rosetta stone of common understanding...an evolutionary link...a common ancestor that we can all trace back to. |
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Ninja-Bear
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Sep 2016
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Wouldn't you as a DM be applying modifiers to the TEC or MEC task at hand? Much like using the Con skill depends on the victim? Just as "Your own grandmother" is a very low difficulty number for a PC, that same woman could be a very high Con difficulty number for someone else. By the same token, routine maintenance on a landspeeder might be a very low difficulty number for a Smuggler, and a very high difficulty number for an Ewok. If the same con mark can represent different difficulty numbers for different people's relationships, so too can technology from an alien culture (ie, anything remotely electronic, to an Ewok) represent a higher difficulty number than technology from your own culture. |
I like this and agree with it. And I think it’s a lot easier to implement in play. |
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Ninja-Bear
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 26 Sep 2016
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| To sum up the original question, I don’t worry about WEG’s stereotype fluff. I see it as shorthand plus most of my players don’t know the fluff that well. I do create character against type but again some go with type. Now if I made an intelligent scientific type Gamorrean? Then the players might question it. Or maybe an Ewok Bounty Hunter in the Classic Era 😉 |
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ThrorII
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jul 2019
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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SW rpg (especially 1e, which is my thing) is all about the Template. All smugglers are the same at start, all brash pilots are the same at start. Each alien race gets a Template, and is the same at start. Star Wars pretty much started the alien hat trope - each alien race can be distilled down to one feature. I find leaning in to the tropes of Star Wars is s feature, not a bug.
It is through skill point arrangement that the stereotype is broken.
Is it fair that some aliens are not as technologically inclined as others? Is it fair that some aliens are not as strong as others? Hey, life's not fair. BUT with hard work and time, you can overcome what life dealt you!
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