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garhkal
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 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Straxus wrote: | Thanks for this, especially when you added the simplified rule so I don't have to divide by 3 
I have an adventure in mind where the PC's will witness the destruction of a city by planetary bombardment. The plan wasn't that the PC's would be anywhere near enough to get hit, but when I read your op I remembered that players will be players...  So it could be really useful to have something if they decide to go in to the danger zone. |
And in some cases, imperials may willfully target the city or series of buildings in a town, if there's a large enough rebel presence there.. So rules like this would be great to figure out who lives, who dies, without having to 'script it out'..
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Whill
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | For example...a character with Dodge 4D will be rolling 16D (4D + the Scale modifier) against 8D+2 (4D+2 Gunnery + 4D Fire Control). Using the 2D=7 rule, that's 56 over 30 for a 26 point split.
Which is then multiplied by 3 to get 78.
Now roll 17D Damage (5D + 12D Scale modifier) for 60 points.
Subtract 78 from 60 and you get -18. The characters don't even need to roll to Soak, since the blast was far enough away that they didn't take damage. This demonstrates the importance of Fire Control: getting the shot close enough to hit for damage. Like so...This time, the Star Destroyer fires a full broadside of 20 turbolaser batteries, which generates a +5D coordination bonus to Fire Control.
All other things being equal, the character is now rolling 16D against 13D+2, for a result of 56 over 49, for a split of 7, which reduces the Damage modifier from above from 78 to 21.
So now, Damage is rolled again, but with a much lower modifier, with a result of 39 (60 - 21).
The character rolls his 3D Strength to Soak and gets an 11, for a split of 28: well into Killed territory. That's a pretty graphic example of the importance of accuracy. The idea is that, if a powerful enough weapon hits close enough to something fragile enough, it doesn't matter that it wasn't a direct hit.
The idea is, if a powerful weapon lacks the accuracy for a direct hit, you either make it more accurate (precision fire control or "lasing" a target), or you fire a whole lot of them and hope you get lucky. Artillery has been based on this premise for centuries.
This rule won't tell you what happens to the surrounding terrain, be it a forest or a city, but that's more the venue of storytelling for the GM than anything requiring a results table.
Naturally, there will also be Cover modifiers, with different types of terrain affecting Fire Control in various ways. But for now, I think the basic rule is sound. |
I think the basic rule is sound. I've never agreed with the 'bucketful o' dice' criticism of D6, but this reminds me that a rule being sound doesn't mean it is necessary.
| Bren wrote: | | Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | For a more crunchy game, sure. Star Wars is more cinematic |
I think there is room for people to create different tones to their Star Wars campaigns. |
There is.
| cheshire wrote: | | I think I tend to run my games in a more narrative and cinematic style as well. I think if someone is looking for more crunch for their game, then this might do the trick for them. But I think I tend towards a style that would use the orbital bombardment as an environmental hazard for the characters to navigate. That is to say, they'd be crossing a bridge that's in the process of falling apart, or they're trying to make their way to a spaceport with buildings collapsing around them, etc. |
For extreme scale difference cases with blast radius, I trust my ability to just wing it and call for movement/dodge rolls of an appropriate difficulty with damage rolls of an appropriate level based on the situation. I guess I'm more in the narrative camp as well. My game doesn't have a need for this level of crunch but I can see how others might like this.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Artillery and its effects do feature in the SWU, so I don't see where you think the two are somehow mutually opposed. |
I didn’t say mutually opposed. I said unlike. (See below.)
| Bren wrote: | | Here you are choosing to mix two unlike things: (1) the narrative method of figuring out if the PC heroes are hit by a blaster bolt or bullet and (2) real world artillery effects. |
You introduced the real world blast effects of artillery which is why I referenced the real world blast effects. But if we are discussing real world blast effects then the way Dodge works in D6 has nothing to do with real world effects. Dodge in D6 is a narrative effect that is intentionally different from how one avoids injury from bullets or artillery fire in the real world and is intended to imitate how firefights in the first three films work and to allow PCs a good chance to survive getting shot at with a blaster.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As I stated above, there is room to fit those modifiers in. Using the Cover and Protection rules from the 2R&E Rulebook allows for characters to increase the artillery's To Hit Difficulty, which in turn reduces the Damage roll even further. What I posted above is just the core rule, to which additional features can be added. |
Your core rule is what I was addressing.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | Conclusion: I'm not comfortable tying survival solely to Dodge. |
And I could say that you too are thinking too narrowly when you assume I'm talking about using only Dodge in every scenario. |
In what you posted, Dodge is your core rule. It’s that core rule I find questionable. Adding some other modifiers doesn’t change the way the core rule works.
| Quote: | | As to Running, I decided a while back (as have several others) to fold Dodge and Running into a single skill called Agility. |
You may not realize how difficult it is to keep track of every one of your house rule changes. As regards running or using vehicle operation to move outside the blast radius before the strike hits, that makes slightly more real world sense to me than dodging to avoid damage. In some situations I think a movement hazard is a better way to go than an avoidance roll. If one desires a rule for rolling to avoid damage from blast effects then leaving which skill to roll to avoid damage up to the GM works better for me.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | -If the characters are just standing, or are walking slowly, use Dodge. |
If all they are doing is casually strolling through the target area I wouldn’t give them a roll to avoid damage since they aren’t doing anything to avoid damage.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Basically, rather than multiplying by 3, every point of Miss equals 1D of Damage Reduction. |
That is significantly simpler and not too difficult to remember. Less crunch and easy recall for the win .
| Kytross wrote: | | Third, being able to soak up damage doesn't mean you can deal out damage. The goal is to stop the threat, to defeat the enemy, not just to survive. |
Except it does mean you can deal out damage since STR is used both to resist all damage and to deal out brawling and melee damage.
| Kytross wrote: | | Why would you use an ad hominem argument? We're debating game theory, our motivations are irrelevant to our arguments. |
Good point. For some reason this thread seems to have more than its share of hostile or snarky sounding comments.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In the case of the Han Solo scene (and, indeed, any scene where a blaster strikes an inorganic object), there is a shower of sparks (or steam, in the case of Hoth), and generally an explosive fracturing of the material around the impact point. |
I see that as physically different than the explosive blast effect of a real world artillery shell exploding. What I see in the movie looks like a secondary effect from the impact and possible super heating of the target material. It's similar to the way that solid iron cannon balls in the Age of Sail caused massive casualties from secondary shrapnel effects from splinters when they hit the wooden rails, sides, and masts of the ships. But the distinction is academic in this case. As far as your method for avoiding secondary damage it doesn't matter whether the effect is from a primary explosion or secondary effects. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | You introduced the real world blast effects of artillery which is why I referenced the real world blast effects. |
I didn't introduce them; the films and WEG did that (see Chapter 9 of the ImpSB). I'm just trying to find a way to include them that actually works without slowing the game down while trying to figure out where everybody in the party is standing relative to the explosive going off, and how far away.
| Quote: | | But if we are discussing real world blast effects then the way Dodge works in D6 has nothing to do with real world effects. Dodge in D6 is a narrative effect that is intentionally different from how one avoids injury from bullets or artillery fire in the real world and is intended to imitate how firefights in the first three films work and to allow PCs a good chance to survive getting shot at with a blaster. |
That's a very arbitrary limitation, IMO. I do think using Dodge in this instance is right on the ragged edge of what Dodge can and can't do, yet it is the skill with the best fit.
A little background here...
The reason the core rule is worded the way it is is because it is the result of an on-again-off-again discussion (see here) going all the way back to 2006, dealing specifically with indirect fire artillery against characters on foot (garhkal has a game module with an artillery walker that needs rules to go with). We've chewed over pretty much every aspect of artillery we can think of to get to this point. The three most relevant points here are that 1) there is almost no warning of incoming artillery (at best, just long enough to dive headlong for the nearest bit of cover you can find), 2) artillery almost never scores a direct hit on a human target, but because of the blast effect, it doesn't need to, and 3) because artillery targets an area, not the character in the area, there needs to be a way to randomize where the artillery fire hits within the area.
This ends up applying not just to artillery, but to starfighter launched air-to-ground weaponry, walker lasers and orbital bombardment by turbolasers.
A direct from an artillery shell (or missile or turbolaser) would be enough to blast a character-scale target into vapor. There would literally be nothing left to bury but some scraps (if that). However, the vast majority of artillery casualties weren't direct hits, but rather, just a bit too close. The closest will be killed by shrapnel and the shockwave, others will be sent flying through the air, others will just get buffeted by debris.
Now, since higher-scale Artillery fire (in the real world and the RAW) isn't accurate enough to score a direct hit on a character-scale target, the technique used is to target a specific set of geographical coordinates and loft a shell into it in the hopes of hitting something. Repeat as necessary. Since the artillery is targeting the area the character is in, not the character themselves
But the RAW has no mechanism for that. The mechanism of Attack skill vs. Reaction skill (whatever either may be) is, as I said in the very first post, an all-or-nothing approach. It's either a direct hit or a total miss, with no room in between. And the more weapons scale up, the D6 Bell Curve makes it less and less likely that they can score a hit, but still roll low enough to do anything other than blow their target all over the place.
Based on that, the only realistic choice was to design a system that allowed misses by a certain amount to generate something less than a direct hit for less than full damage. Where Dodge comes in is that, in the case of artillery, the point of impact will be a random point somewhere within a given area, with size determined by the weapon's CEP (circular error probability). So something was needed to randomize that location, not in terms of meters and bearing, but degree of damage.
So, the original rule (for Artillery vs. Characters on foot) used Dodge, but any appropriate reaction skill can easily be substituted based on the circumstances.
| Quote: | | Your core rule is what I was addressing. |
For the sake of clarity, I consider the Core Rule to be: -1 Miss = -1D Damage. The skills used to generate the Miss value will be any Ranged Weapon vs. the appropriate Reaction skill that counters that Ranged weapon.
| Quote: | | In some situations I think a movement hazard is a better way to go than an avoidance roll. If one desires a rule for rolling to avoid damage from blast effects then leaving which skill to roll to avoid damage up to the GM works better for me. |
Basing it on Movement was one of the options I considered, but using the Movement rules as-is, I ran into issues of the steps in damage being too few and too steep, as well as the fact that a character who isn't moving doesn't have to make a Movement check, and would therefore be immune to any rule that used movement failure to inflicts damage.
| Quote: | | I see that as physically different than the explosive blast effect of a real world artillery shell exploding. What I see in the movie looks like a secondary effect from the impact and possible super heating of the target material. It's similar to the way that solid iron cannon balls in the Age of Sail caused massive casualties from secondary shrapnel effects from splinters when they hit the wooden rails, sides, and masts of the ships. But the distinction is academic in this case. As far as your method for avoiding secondary damage it doesn't matter whether the effect is from a primary explosion or secondary effects. |
This is why I deliberately didn't include metric distance measurements. Remember that this rule is only applicable if the GM feels the circumstances merit it. There must be something nearby for the character's blaster bolt to hit and cause a blast effect; if there is nothing there to hit, the blaster bolt just whizzes by without effect. This will mostly come into play if a larger scale weapon is shooting a downward angle at a target on the ground, or if a character-scale battle in close quarters gets a Wild Dice result (allowing the GM to say that an accidental hit blew out a power conduit) or if a character gets inventive and starts shooting at something near his target that's likely to blow out (personally, it looks like Han deliberately shot the overhand to create confusion and chaos, not necessarily to kill).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | For extreme scale difference cases with blast radius, I trust my ability to just wing it and call for movement/dodge rolls of an appropriate difficulty with damage rolls of an appropriate level based on the situation. I guess I'm more in the narrative camp as well. My game doesn't have a need for this level of crunch but I can see how others might like this. |
Narrative was part of my reasoning for scripting this rule like this. I basically removed everything but a method of generating how a nearby blast will affect the PCs. Everything else is left up to the GM.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Also, for the sake of simplicity and variety, I've added two other modifiers, each either a step above or below the basic -1 = -1D. To even further simplify calculation, here are three conversion charts, labeled Area, Standard and Point to represent how broadly the effect spreads over a given area. Standard used the -1 = -1D formula, while Area uses -2 = -1D and Point uses -1 = -2D. How It Works:Roll the attack as normal, either against the individual characters separately or against the vehicle they are in, using appropriate Ranged Weapon and Reaction skills.
If the shot misses, convert the Miss value into dice (example: the shot misses by 3, so Damage Reduction is -3D).
Apply the Damage Reduction modifier to the Damage dice value (including any Scale modifiers)
If the resulting value is 0D or less, the character / vehicle is unharmed.
If the resulting value is 1D or more, roll Damage as normal against the affected target (in the event of a group of characters with differing Dodge roll values, this can result in some characters having to soak damage while others do not).
Standard
-1 = -1D
-2 = -2D
-3 = -3D
-4 = -4D
-5 = -5D
-6 = -6D
-7 = -7D
-8 = -8D
-9 = -9D
-10 = -10D
-11 = -11D
-12 = -12D
-13 = -13D
-14 = -14D
-15 = -15D
-16 = -16D
-17 = -17D
-18 = -18D
-19 = -19D
-20 = -20D
Area
-1-2 = -1D
-3-4 = -2D
-5-6 = -3D
-7-8 = -4D
-9-10 = -5D
-11-12 = -6D
-13=14 = -7D
-15-16 = -8D
-17-18 = -9D
-19-20 = -10D
-21-22 = -11D
-23-24 = -12D
-25-26 = -13D
-27-28 = -14D
-29-30 = -15D
-31-32 = -16D
-33-34 = -17D
-35-36 = -18D
-37-38 = -19D
-39-40 = -20D
Point
-1 = -2D
-2 = -4D
-3 = -6D
-4 = -8D
-5 = -10D
-6 = -12D
-7 = -14D
-8 = -16D
-9 = -18D
-10 = -20D
This way, you can tailor individual weapons to have specific kinds of effects, such as an anti-personnel round having an Area effect with low base damage spread over a wider area, or a bunker-buster with high base damage focused on a specific area that drops off quickly outside of that.
A stat for a weapon would include which type of chart to use. Here are some example from the Artillery topic.Anti-Personnel
-Damage: 2D (Area)
HE Regular
-Damage: 7D (Standard)
Anti-Vehicle / Bunker Buster
-Damage: 9D (Point)
Indendiary
-Damage: 2D Fire (Standard)
Most weapons will default to Standard; exceptions will be specifically designed to have greater or lesser areas of effect.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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The spam threat in the thread has been neutralized.
You may now return to your friendly chat about blowing things up.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm just trying to find a way to include them that actually works without slowing the game down while trying to figure out where everybody in the party is standing relative to the explosive going off, and how far away. |
Your amended rule with GM determined reaction rolls seems like an acceptable way to do that. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | The spam threat in the thread has been neutralized.
You may now return to your friendly chat about blowing things up. |
So how's about those thermal wells! 8)
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I just got around to reading these house rules. It really is simple and elegant. I will be using it in an upcoming game representing a battle during the uprising on Mimban depicted in Solo 10 BBY. |
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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So after reading this thread, and doing some noodling - I came up with a grossly over-simplified version:
TLDR VERSION:
Treat larger sale weapons as area attacks, and use standard area attack rules.
The Blast Raidus of an larger scale weapon is its character scale damage, in meters.
So, a walker heavy laser cannon, which does 6D damage, adding 4D scale = 10m blast raidus.
Use all the existing rules for deviation, etc. (maybe add scale to deviation number).
Reduce damage based upon how much something missed.
LONGER VERSION:
A lot of really great thoughts and details in this thread.
I really like a lot of it - but I also love detail and personally, I overthink and analyze everything.... (ask my poor players and co-workers).
Then, I did do a bit of research on the effective damage areas of a few real world munitions - um... those things are insanely dangerous (a round from a real world battleship - which I kind of equated to a heavy turbo laser) has a massive damage area.
But I realized I wanted something a bit more ... simple - even if sacrificing some detail.
Then I re-read the existing area attack rules - and found they are not terrible, and this could just work with it.
Anything larger than character scale which does not have a blast radius, if if feels like it should have one use this;
1 - Determine character scale damage; Damage + Scale Modifier.
2 - Treat as area attack, with this damage = blast radius in meters.
3 - Target as any other area attack (see area attack rules and scatter etc.).
4 - Center of blast takes full damage (adjust by scale) - for distances further away, reduce damage 1D per meter.
Some weapons the GM may consider have small blast radius, or some larger.
If the GM thinks smaller, make the number in step 2 - the blast area, not the radius.
For example; the gm feels the blasters on speeder bikes should be a bit less - so halves the area. or the gm thinks a concussion missile might be more, so doubles it.
For example, a walker targets some fleeing rebels with its heavy laser cannons.
1 - Walker weapon damage :6D Walker scale 4D = 10D damage.
2 - This is an area attack, 10m raidus (20m diameter).
3 - The walker targets the character - and missed - so roll deviation.
4 - GM determines walker missed by 6M, so gm assigns damage to be 4D.
is this super detailed and accurate? No.
Is it simple and straightforward? yep.
Is it for everyone ? Nope. But that is the cool thing - folks can take what they like, and mix it up.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Not too dissimilar from mine... I don't like the addition of the extra step of calculating the distance, which ultimately isn't necessary for the purposes of combat itself (as part of my larger theory, non-Force Sensitive characters aren't going to be able to truly "dodge" a ranged attack by a blaster or firearm anyway). Ultimately, it was simpler to come up with a formula for distance-in-meters after the fact, as seen here, as part of the Artillery house rules.
Also, arithmetic progression doesn't work for all Scales or all weapons, since some weapons will have only an incidental blast radius, while others will be specifically designed to spread their effect over the greatest area possible. Taken to it's extreme, a hit from the Death Star's superlaser would have a Blast Radius of ~40 meters.
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pakman
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Not too dissimilar from mine... I don't like the addition of the extra step of calculating the distance, which ultimately isn't necessary for the purposes of combat itself (as part of my larger theory, non-Force Sensitive characters aren't going to be able to truly "dodge" a ranged attack by a blaster or firearm anyway). Ultimately, it was simpler to come up with a formula for distance-in-meters after the fact, as seen here, as part of the Artillery house rules.
Also, arithmetic progression doesn't work for all Scales or all weapons, since some weapons will have only an incidental blast radius, while others will be specifically designed to spread their effect over the greatest area possible. Taken to it's extreme, a hit from the Death Star's superlaser would have a Blast Radius of ~40 meters. |
Very true on the DS laser !
I put in the caveat about the gm changing the size based upon the nature of the weapon (originally, I had made a list of things that should be bigger and smaller - then realized that having a list was against my "really simple" intention in the first place).
When I put in the text on adjusting the size (the speeder bike example) I left out the example of making it bigger.
Ironically - some real world weapons have absolutely terrifying damage areas - but in a game that would make it too easy for larger scale attacks to wipe out characters.
Regardless of how ever folks want to model it - this has been a great thought provoking thread (like many on the pit...).
thanks for sharing everyone.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | I put in the caveat about the gm changing the size based upon the nature of the weapon (originally, I had made a list of things that should be bigger and smaller - then realized that having a list was against my "really simple" intention in the first place).
When I put in the text on adjusting the size (the speeder bike example) I left out the example of making it bigger. |
I struggled quite a bit with how to give a blast radius to weapons without a listed radius (check the Artillery post for some of the details), and while I'm not averse to doing lots of math to add to a stat, I just couldn't come up with a system that 1) I liked, 2) was a passably accurate representation of actual blast effects, and 3) was easy for GMs and players to apply.
Ultimately, it was far, far simpler to just remove the use of actual meters until after the fact, as the crucial point for tabletop combat was not exactly how far away the blast was, but whether or not it was close enough to do damage, and if so, how much. In fact, even knowing the exact number of meters isn't accurate, as a myriad of factors can affect whether or not a character even takes damage at all. In reality, two people standing a couple meters apart can have completely different results based on random instances of cover (a tree, a random rise in terrain, etc) that completely protect one of them while the other is splattered all over the landscape.
I know mine isn't the perfect system, but it is simple enough to not bog down gameplay and sufficiently random for characters to have a decent chance of being caught in an artillery barrage and taking/surviving damage that doesn't utterly vaporize them.
| Quote: | | Ironically - some real world weapons have absolutely terrifying damage areas - but in a game that would make it too easy for larger scale attacks to wipe out characters. |
Indeed. In fact, my range-in-meters generation chart may actually not be big enough...
| Quote: | Regardless of how ever folks want to model it - this has been a great thought provoking thread (like many on the pit...).
thanks for sharing everyone. |
Definitely check the artillery thread. A lot of the thought process that resulted in this idea happened over there.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Regardless of how ever folks want to model it - this has been a great thought provoking thread (like many on the pit...).
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Glad you are liking this thread..
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | 1) I liked, 2) was a passably accurate representation of actual blast effects, and 3) was easy for GMs and players to apply. |
Yea.. What's 'easy' for me, may not be easy for someone else.
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