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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ForbinProject wrote: |
Yes I actually can. When I was in the Navy that's exactly how we loaded foodstuffs onto our ship.
Crewmen lined up from the pier onto the ship thru the corridors to the store rooms and passed stuff to each other i box/package at a time.
We had to do those evolutions several times during a 6 month cruise.
My ship carried over 400 crew and 960 Marines. |
Yes. But a freighter pilot doesn't have a crew of hundreds or thousands "captive" troops at his disposal. A drop off or load up would take DAYS (or even weeks, possibly), and that's not accounting for any administrative hold ups that he would have to clear (port security/customs, paperwork delays, etc), AND the shipment would necessarily have to be broken up into boxes no larger than about 1/2 a cubic meter in order to fit through a portal that is only large enough for a chubby person to stand in. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16345
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | If we are talking about the work that went into the publication, then I would venture to speculate that the artists who contributed schematics have no real world experience in star ship design (  ) , and probably lack a background in industrial transportation or warehouse functions, etc.
Can you imagine trying to unload 100 metric tons (that is, 100,000 kg) 1 "character scale" box at a time (i.e. no more than 15-20kg per box)? The access ports are so small that only one character can go through it at a time, meaning that you can't have people going in and out simultaneously. Someone going in? Gotta wait for the guy already in there to come out... It just doesn't work from a logistics stand point. |
Seconded.
And as someone who has a background in the transportation field, I can say that, whatever WEG got right on their deckplans, they got the mechanics of loading and unloading cargo badly wrong. On my rig, I routinely carry loads in the 20+ ton range, and even with palletized loads (with a few dozen boxes on each) being moved by forklifts, and a direct path of travel into and out of the trailer, it can take 30-60 minutes. Individually loading boxes by hand increases that time estimate exponentially.
The only alternative I can see would be some form of Lumper Droid (a Lumper is a laborer who unloads cargo): a simple-minded repulsor driven droid whose only function is to move boxes or crates on and off ships, likely with some capability to obey instructions regarding sorting and stacking.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14253
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
If we are talking about the work that went into the publication, then I would venture to speculate that the artists who contributed schematics have no real world experience in star ship design ( ) , and probably lack a background in industrial transportation or warehouse functions, etc.
Can you imagine trying to unload 100 metric tons (that is, 100,000 kg) 1 "character scale" box at a time (i.e. no more than 15-20kg per box)? The access ports are so small that only one character can go through it at a time, meaning that you can't have people going in and out simultaneously. Someone going in? Gotta wait for the guy already in there to come out... It just doesn't work from a logistics stand point.
In any case, roll with what you think makes sense, bro. |
You do realize many of those ships are shown as having a 2, some times even 3 Meter circular opening (often a down/up lift).. That allows for a lot more than 1 cha scale box at a time..
| ForbinProject wrote: |
Yes I actually can. When I was in the Navy that's exactly how we loaded foodstuffs onto our ship.
Crewmen lined up from the pier onto the ship thru the corridors to the store rooms and passed stuff to each other i box/package at a time.
My ship carried over 400 crew and 960 Marines. |
Same here.. Mine though was a carrier, with over 4600 people on once Airwing got there..
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Ray
Commodore
Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 1743
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, North America, Western Hemisphere, Earth, Sol, Western Arm, Milky Way
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:13 am Post subject: |
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There is a reason that Cargo Roustabouts and Loader/Unloaders are a thing. They used to haul crates of cargo out from deep inside cargo ships through various sized access ways with hand-powered mechanical devices, and have done so for centuries.
So, yeah, add in repulsorlift crates or other cargo loading options, and it gets a lot easier. But even if all you have is muscle strength in the Star Wars Universe, it can be done in an astounding variety of ways, ranging from animals that can lift and drop while dangling from the hull of the ship, to smaller insect-like animals working a "donkey track" mechanical crane, to a bunch of thick bodied dock workers with cargo hooks.
Hell, I'd probably try to come up with a new way for the ship to be loaded/unloaded at every port just to give the group something to look forward to. 
Worst case for most systems, I'd just have a loader droid rental place like we have "Rent-a-wreck" joints today that hire out cube vans. "OK, so, you got a hundred tons to move? CLL-8 Loadlifter is your choice! Just, uh, make sure you got a translator, otherwise we'll have to include the protocol droid for an extra fee." "I got a Astromech that speaks Binary, and you'd have to pay me to get a protocol droid!" |
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ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Yes. But a freighter pilot doesn't have a crew of hundreds or thousands "captive" troops at his disposal. A drop off or load up would take DAYS (or even weeks, possibly), and that's not accounting for any administrative hold ups that he would have to clear (port security/customs, paperwork delays, etc), AND the shipment would necessarily have to be broken up into boxes no larger than about 1/2 a cubic meter in order to fit through a portal that is only large enough for a chubby person to stand in. |
No this is Star Wars where ships and starports have DROIDS to do the menial labor of loading and unloading a cargo hold.
And instead of our modern hand trucks, and dollies they have ones equipped with repulsorlifts which makes moving cargo ridiculously easy compared to human muscles. |
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:57 am Post subject: |
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It doesnt matter: a smaller opening only permits a certain amount through it at once. Its not a question of fatigue, but of efficiency. A dinky portal would require all kinds of logistical acrobatics. And a star port isnt going to have hundreds of droids PER SHIP to dedicate to unloading individual containers. Its still just one or two droids moving 10s of thousands of boxes off of one craft.
And if the opening IS 2-3 meters as garhkal points out (contrary to his previous assertion of 1.5m), then a speeder will fit, no problem. |
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ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | It doesnt matter: a smaller opening only permits a certain amount through it at once. Its not a question of fatigue, but of efficiency. A dinky portal would require all kinds of logistical acrobatics. |
Having actually done cargo loading and unloading by hand I know it isn't anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.
| Quote: | | And a star port isnt going to have hundreds of droids PER SHIP to dedicate to unloading individual containers. Its still just one or two droids moving 10s of thousands of boxes off of one craft. |
Hundreds of droids?
10's of thousands of boxes?
You do realize the ship in question is only 30.2 meters right? And it's cargo bays only make up a fraction of that space.
Using this schematic each square is roughly 1.1 meter. That means each cargo bay is roughly 12.1 meters by 4.4 meters, and the cargo elevators are 2.2 meters in diameter.
The only way you'd get 10's of thousands of boxes on a ship that small is if the cargo was boxes of matches.
And a 30m freighter is only going to need 2-3 droids to unload it.
| Quote: | | And if the opening IS 2-3 meters as garhkal points out (contrary to his previous assertion of 1.5m), then a speeder will fit, no problem. |
The circular cargo elevators on the XS-800 are only 2.2 meters in diameter. In order to be loaded/unloaded all cargo and vehicles have to fit within that 2.2 meter diameter otherwise anything sticking over that 2.2 meters will be crushed when you try to load it. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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And that's my concern.. YES a car MIGHT fit into a 2.2 meter opening, but its NOT all going to fit on a 2.2 meter circular lift...
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ForbinProject wrote: | | Crewmen lined up from the pier onto the ship thru the corridors to the store rooms and passed stuff to each other i box/package at a time. |
| Naaman wrote: | | Yes. But a freighter pilot doesn't have a crew of hundreds or thousands "captive" troops at his disposal. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Can you imagine trying to unload 100 metric tons (that is, 100,000 kg) 1 "character scale" box at a time (i.e. no more than 15-20kg per box)? |
Two words: conveyor belts.
C.J. Cherryh used a type of belt extensively in her Alliance-Union novels where most cargo was transported in standard size cans. IIR, the belts hooked onto the rim or lip of the cans so that almost all cargo could be auto loaded or unloaded. And in the real world, UPS has used conveyor belts to move packages up to the door of a delivery truck for 30-40 years or more.
That said, I tend to put full-size hatches with ramps on my cargo ships. So that something at least the size of a sofa or speederbike can be loaded or unloaded and because I like the visual of a ramp for characters getting on or off a ship. |
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And that's my concern.. YES a car MIGHT fit into a 2.2 meter opening, but its NOT all going to fit on a 2.2 meter circular lift... |
Dude, just fly it through the opening. Case closed. |
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, of course, conveyor belts. My point is merely that if the port is too small to drive a speeder through, then its too small to unload 100 metric tons in a reasonable amount of time regardless of what is used to unload it. Its not a question of labor intensivity. Its a question of what is a reasonably sized orafice for a ship designed to haul 100,000 kilograms of stuff across the galaxy, possibly having to make multiple stops to unload it and/or possibly needing access to cargo not right up against the opening. If the opening is so small that a speeder cant reasonably be maneuvered into the cargo bay, then its not a sellable design.
Hauling cargo isn't just stuffing a bunch of stuff in the bay. The trip may have multiple stops and pick ups and drops-off along the way and there needs to be a quick and reasonable means for getting large items in and out with no fuss (at least not on the ship's end: the warehouse or whatever should be able to use appropriate tools to get refrigerators or sofas or king-sized beds [which are bigger than 2.2m, for example] through the opening.
| Bren wrote: | | ForbinProject wrote: | | Crewmen lined up from the pier onto the ship thru the corridors to the store rooms and passed stuff to each other i box/package at a time. |
| Naaman wrote: | | Yes. But a freighter pilot doesn't have a crew of hundreds or thousands "captive" troops at his disposal. |
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Can you imagine trying to unload 100 metric tons (that is, 100,000 kg) 1 "character scale" box at a time (i.e. no more than 15-20kg per box)? |
Two words: conveyor belts.
C.J. Cherryh used a type of belt extensively in her Alliance-Union novels where most cargo was transported in standard size cans. IIR, the belts hooked onto the rim or lip of the cans so that almost all cargo could be auto loaded or unloaded. And in the real world, UPS has used conveyor belts to move packages up to the door of a delivery truck for 30-40 years or more.
That said, I tend to put full-size hatches with ramps on my cargo ships. So that something at least the size of a sofa or speederbike can be loaded or unloaded and because I like the visual of a ramp for characters getting on or off a ship. |
Last edited by Naaman on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | My point is that if the port is too small to drive a speeder through, then its too small to unload 100 metric tons in a reasonable amount of time regardless of what is used to unload it. |
That depends on what it is designed to carry and on the ratio of mass to assumed volume. And Star Wars is pretty vague on both those points. The requirements for loading and unloading liquid cement, raw duranium ore, gold bars, tanks of hydrogen, paint can sized containers of food stuffs, 1 cubic meter cargo crates, luxury landspeeders, and shoe-box sized boxes of light electronics parts are going to vary quite a bit. Some of those will be best served with doors big enough to drive a landspeeder thru. Others will not. But as I said, I prefer to include a full size door with ramp on my tramp freighters for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else. |
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | My point is that if the port is too small to drive a speeder through, then its too small to unload 100 metric tons in a reasonable amount of time regardless of what is used to unload it. |
That depends on what it is designed to carry and on the ratio of mass to assumed volume. And Star Wars is pretty vague on both those points. The requirements for loading and unloading liquid cement, raw duranium ore, gold bars, tanks of hydrogen, paint can sized containers of food stuffs, 1 cubic meter cargo crates, luxury landspeeders, and shoe-box sized boxes of light electronics parts are going to vary quite a bit. Some of those will be best served with doors big enough to drive a landspeeder thru. Others will not. But as I said, I prefer to include a full size door with ramp on my tramp freighters for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else. |
Hey man, I totally agree with you (especially about the vagueness of "cargo capacity"). But a cargo pilot shouldn't have to worry about it. I know an owner operator who hauled furniture, tractors, and all kinds of things in his trailer. The most interesting haul I heard of? 1.05 million eggs. The same trailer can/is used to haul whatever, and that's the point: the freighter needs to be able to take "shipments" when work is available.
When you start designing ships to carry only a certain kind of cargo, you severely limit the demand for that ship, and thus, you have an unsellable design. |
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ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | But as I said, I prefer to include a full size door with ramp on my tramp freighters for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else. |
This, and the same can be done with cargo lift/elevators if the players want and the GM allows it. |
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ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | When you start designing ships to carry only a certain kind of cargo, you severely limit the demand for that ship, and thus, you have an unsellable design. |
This is the crux of the problem. We're not dealing with the real world. Most of the artists that imagined these ships never took real life cargo transportation concerns into consideration.
Anyone remember the Enterprise schematics that didn't include bathrooms/toilets? 5 year deep space mission and no place to poop. |
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