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DoubtBreak
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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Is everyone else getting as much of a laugh about this as me? We're arguing over what's "realistic" in a setting where people can kill each other with a hand gesture. 
| Firehawk0220 wrote: | The Force isn't something you can "out muscle". The Force isn't like that at all. It is an energy field with no limit to it's strength.
Once a Jedi or other Force user realizes this, size, speed and the dynamics of the object are meaningless. |
If that's the basis for your rules, why have Force skill dice at all? Why not have automatic success at all Force Power attempts? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm really having trouble understanding the logic behind this. Unless you've done away with Force skill dice entirely, you have to acknowledge that it's not the power of the Force that determines what the character can do; it's the character's skillfullness at manipulating the Force.
| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | I was thinking about this a bit... Let's take Force Choke, for example. |
Are we still talking official rules? Do you mean Telekinetic Kill? |
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| DoubtBreak wrote: | Is everyone else getting as much of a laugh about this as me? We're arguing over what's "realistic" in a setting where people can kill each other with a hand gesture.
| Firehawk0220 wrote: | The Force isn't something you can "out muscle". The Force isn't like that at all. It is an energy field with no limit to it's strength.
Once a Jedi or other Force user realizes this, size, speed and the dynamics of the object are meaningless. |
If that's the basis for your rules, why have Force skill dice at all? Why not have automatic success at all Force Power attempts? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm really having trouble understanding the logic behind this. Unless you've done away with Force skill dice entirely, you have to acknowledge that it's not the power of the Force that determines what the character can do; it's the character's skillfullness at manipulating the Force.
| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | I was thinking about this a bit... Let's take Force Choke, for example. |
Are we still talking official rules? Do you mean Telekinetic Kill? |
No it is based on the users skill in manipulating the force. There are die for using the force as well. If they fail to make their rolls to perform the action then they fail to do so.
But non-force sensitives shouldn't be able to resist force attacks without the use of the force. Since they won't have force abilities to any meaningful degree, they generally can't resist certain types of force based attacks.
Things like the Mind Trick are ok to resist with willpower. Things like Telekinesis being resisted by Perception is horse feces. That is not how it works. A non-Force Sensitives only chance is the Force user may fail.
It's just a different way of looking at it and doing things. My methods have always worked well for me. I create solutions to problems or innaccuracies within the rules as I see them, and make adjustments. Sometimes making those adjustments throw things out of perfect balance in some instances, such as in reference to Force users, but if you watch the movies, that's pretty much how it works anyway.
I keep things balanced in other ways. |
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Pel
Line Captain
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, what you said made sense, Firehawk0220.
I still find myself agreeing with Doubtbreak, but perhaps someone used a Jedi Mind Trick on me... 
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DoubtBreak
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| Firehawk0220 wrote: | | Things like Telekinesis being resisted by Perception is horse feces. That is not how it works. A non-Force Sensitives only chance is the Force user may fail. |
Not necessarily. Lifting a 90kg rock that doesn't react to the attempt is one thing. Lifting a 90kg human (or other living being) who's squirming, thrashing, and otherwise making a nuisance of himself/herself is going to be a bit more difficult. Not only does the Force-user have to lift the person's weight, he/she also has to either try to hold the person immobile, or simply lift them (with the Force) despite the struggling and flailing around. The difficulty for Telekinesis has always been modified by the complexity of the attempt. Having to compensate for motion and maintain concentration on a wildly thrashing target is not the same as lifting a dead weight. That said, I'd certainly agree that a non-Force-sensitive character can only make that defense roll if he/she is in a position to struggle (and not, for example, while sleeping or heavily restrained).
As for why the resistance roll should be Perception, well... Strength is out because there's nothing tangible to push against. Dexterity isn't really useful since, again, there's nothing tangible to wriggle out of. Perception is a reasonable alternative because an attempt to struggle against an unseen force (small f) depends mainly on the person's ability to perceive exactly how it is affecting him/her, and react quickly enough to break the Force-user's concentration before actually being lifted. Even if the character can't sense the Force, any reasonably aware character would notice the telekinetic force (again, small f) as the Force-user attempted to use that power.
Of course, there are ways around that resistance roll even as it is written. At the Ewok village on Endor, Luke lifts the wooden chair that C-3P0 is sitting in and spins him around. Since he's lifting the chair, the droid's weight is added onto it, but the droid is not being directly affected- so even assuming the droid could have attempted a resistance roll to resist telekinesis, it has no options except either ride the chair or bail out. (I doubt I'd let this sort of trick go so far as levitating clothes, though... that could get interesting in many different ways, and none of those ways is particularly good.)
| Firehawk0220 wrote: | | Sometimes making those adjustments throw things out of perfect balance in some instances, such as in reference to Force users, but if you watch the movies, that's pretty much how it works anyway. |
Actually, at no point in the movies does any Force-user move another person against his/her will by using telekinesis, so this whole topic of discussion is in Expanded Universe territory to begin with. (Unless, of course, you're considering the Force Push to be no different from telekinesis.)
Oh, and a final suggestion. It might be easier to convince other people to see things from your point of view, when you aren't saying that their opinions are horse feces. |
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| DoubtBreak wrote: | | Firehawk0220 wrote: | | Things like Telekinesis being resisted by Perception is horse feces. That is not how it works. A non-Force Sensitives only chance is the Force user may fail. |
Not necessarily. Lifting a 90kg rock that doesn't react to the attempt is one thing. Lifting a 90kg human (or other living being) who's squirming, thrashing, and otherwise making a nuisance of himself/herself is going to be a bit more difficult. Not only does the Force-user have to lift the person's weight, he/she also has to either try to hold the person immobile, or simply lift them (with the Force) despite the struggling and flailing around. The difficulty for Telekinesis has always been modified by the complexity of the attempt. Having to compensate for motion and maintain concentration on a wildly thrashing target is not the same as lifting a dead weight. That said, I'd certainly agree that a non-Force-sensitive character can only make that defense roll if he/she is in a position to struggle (and not, for example, while sleeping or heavily restrained). |
The weight of the object doesn't matter. Yoda specifically tries to impress upon Luke that this is the case. I would think two things need to happen in order to resist Telekinesis. First is the perception roll to realize it, and then a dex roll to dodge the attack. That would be in keeping with your theory.
I think that after the person is lifted from the ground, their thrashing doesn't matter. I wouldn't think their physical movements would be an issue. Your point about concentration is valid, but as you stated, the complexity of the action should dictate the difficulty in making the rolls to do this.
I still think that perception alone to "dodge" a telekinetic hold is horse feces. Just my opinion, but you are correct that I should have worded things differently. I apologize.
| DoubtBreak wrote: | As for why the resistance roll should be Perception, well... Strength is out because there's nothing tangible to push against. Dexterity isn't really useful since, again, there's nothing tangible to wriggle out of. Perception is a reasonable alternative because an attempt to struggle against an unseen force (small f) depends mainly on the person's ability to perceive exactly how it is affecting him/her, and react quickly enough to break the Force-user's concentration before actually being lifted. Even if the character can't sense the Force, any reasonably aware character would notice the telekinetic force (again, small f) as the Force-user attempted to use that power.
Of course, there are ways around that resistance roll even as it is written. At the Ewok village on Endor, Luke lifts the wooden chair that C-3P0 is sitting in and spins him around. Since he's lifting the chair, the droid's weight is added onto it, but the droid is not being directly affected- so even assuming the droid could have attempted a resistance roll to resist telekinesis, it has no options except either ride the chair or bail out. (I doubt I'd let this sort of trick go so far as levitating clothes, though... that could get interesting in many different ways, and none of those ways is particularly good.) |
Again the weight is a non-issue. Your point is otherwise well taken here. If he is lifting the chair and not the droid then yes, I can see him bailing out as a form of "resistance" or "dodge". I think situations like this it is important to get an exact feeling for what the player character is thinking and how the player wishes to manipulate the force here. A force user can manipulate multiple objects with the force at the same time, but there is a difference between the player saying "I am going to lift the droid and the chair" and that same player saying, " I am going to lift the chair with the force." There is a distinct difference in how that works, but at the same time either method works the same from the point of view of anyone seeing the above action occuring.
| DoubtBreak wrote: | | Actually, at no point in the movies does any Force-user move another person against his/her will by using telekinesis, so this whole topic of discussion is in Expanded Universe territory to begin with. (Unless, of course, you're considering the Force Push to be no different from telekinesis.) |
This is not correct. In Episode III Count Dooku in fact moves Obi-Wan telekinetically with the Force in a couple of different ways. Including throwing him. He was a thrashing force sensitive target. Him being lifted, (and choked at the same time) then moved and thrown to a specific place in order to render him unconcious and then pin him down by bending the metal of the deck or landing to cage him was very complex. Also I do consider force push, or pull to be the same thing as telekinesis. The same is true for force jump as well. (Depending on how you chose to do it.) Manipulation of objects with the force/mind is in fact by definition telekinesis and I consider them forms of the same ability.
As to the last one, Force Jump, there are really two ways to do it. Enhance your physical attributes with the force in order to jump. Which would not be telekinesis, or use telekinesis to lift the Jedi up and essentially propel themselves in an upward direction. That method is telekinesis.
So while this has been generally expanded universe territory there is precident here in a movie.
| DoubtBreak wrote: | | Oh, and a final suggestion. It might be easier to convince other people to see things from your point of view, when you aren't saying that their opinions are horse feces. |
Like I said, I apologize for my wording. Point taken. |
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Pel
Line Captain
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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The weight of the object does matter. If it didn't, then any Padawan could casually toss Star Destroyers around. Even Yoda, arguably the galaxy's most powerful and experienced Jedi, showed strain when lifting the X-wing from the swamp.
WEG wisely recognized the need for some limits on channeling the Force and instituted the weight rules. Does the Force care if you're trying to lift a blaster or a bantha? Nope, but sentient brains do. The idea is that a being's mind tends to "impose reality" when attempting herculean feats with the Force. Only by completely divorcing the mind from it's "physical perspective" could one channel unlimited Force energy. Of course when we've seen this happen in the books, the physical body burns out and can't handle it. I'm specifically thinking of Anakin and Dorsk 82 here.
Second point: Doubtbreak's reasoning for Perception resisting the Force is absolutely correct. It gives all those mundanes/muggles/whatevers the slim opportunity to make the Jedi/Sith's roll a tad bit higher. This really only makes a difference when pitted against low or mid-level Force user anyway. Without some fantastic Wild Die intervention, the average galactic citizen is completely at the mercy of any decent Force user.
Enter Masters Yoda and Obi-Wan. The Force is in all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. All living things are imbued with some level of Force energy. Knowing that, I find it perfectly acceptable that someone could use their Perception Attribute to resist the Force since it is the closest measurement of a being's "mental and psionic defenses". No life? No Force. This is why droids don't have Force points.
Back to the weight and resistance thing: You're trying to split a very fine hair with the droid and the chair. Both are non-sentient objects, so neither could put up active resistance to the Force. It doesn't matter if one tries to lift the chair or the chair and the droid in it. The weight is the same. Although, if lifting only the chair, I would give the droid a chance to leap out of it.
A word on thrashing. An opposed Perception roll could be construed as a being's "mental thrashing" around, muddying the flow of the Force in and around them. Thus, any directed Force powers might not work quite as well against said individual.
In closing, apology accepted. Let's keep it friendly, yes? 
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: |
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As a suggestion. Can we come up with a list of the force powers that affect others and what each person feels should be used to resist it?
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | The weight of the object does matter. If it didn't, then any Padawan could casually toss Star Destroyers around. Even Yoda, arguably the galaxy's most powerful and experienced Jedi, showed strain when lifting the X-wing from the swamp.
WEG wisely recognized the need for some limits on channeling the Force and instituted the weight rules. Does the Force care if you're trying to lift a blaster or a bantha? Nope, but sentient brains do. The idea is that a being's mind tends to "impose reality" when attempting herculean feats with the Force. Only by completely divorcing the mind from it's "physical perspective" could one channel unlimited Force energy. Of course when we've seen this happen in the books, the physical body burns out and can't handle it. I'm specifically thinking of Anakin and Dorsk 82 here.
Second point: Doubtbreak's reasoning for Perception resisting the Force is absolutely correct. It gives all those mundanes/muggles/whatevers the slim opportunity to make the Jedi/Sith's roll a tad bit higher. This really only makes a difference when pitted against low or mid-level Force user anyway. Without some fantastic Wild Die intervention, the average galactic citizen is completely at the mercy of any decent Force user.
Enter Masters Yoda and Obi-Wan. The Force is in all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. All living things are imbued with some level of Force energy. Knowing that, I find it perfectly acceptable that someone could use their Perception Attribute to resist the Force since it is the closest measurement of a being's "mental and psionic defenses". No life? No Force. This is why droids don't have Force points.
Back to the weight and resistance thing: You're trying to split a very fine hair with the droid and the chair. Both are non-sentient objects, so neither could put up active resistance to the Force. It doesn't matter if one tries to lift the chair or the chair and the droid in it. The weight is the same. Although, if lifting only the chair, I would give the droid a chance to leap out of it.
A word on thrashing. An opposed Perception roll could be construed as a being's "mental thrashing" around, muddying the flow of the Force in and around them. Thus, any directed Force powers might not work quite as well against said individual.
In closing, apology accepted. Let's keep it friendly, yes? |
Padawan's can't move Star Destroyers and the like because they aren't mentally capable of weilding the force that well.
Plus you are correct in that a person has to get past the idea that there isn't a difference between an X-Wing and a Star Destroyer. Even though the force makes no distinction.
I don't agree exactly with your points about the mental resistance of normal people vs. Force users. Though we are both in agreement that a way is necessary and possible for regular force users to resist such attacks. What differes here is the mechanics and methods we use to do this in our respective games. I still don't agree that perception or willpower is correct for resisting most force based attacks, but I'll agree to disagree here. |
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DoubtBreak
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Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
I think that after the person is lifted from the ground, their thrashing doesn't matter. I wouldn't think their physical movements would be an issue. Your point about concentration is valid, but as you stated, the complexity of the action should dictate the difficulty in making the rolls to do this.
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Picking up a thrashing being isn't more complicated than picking up a motionless object?
I do think I see where you're coming from though - forgive me if I mis-represent your views at all. If you think of the Force as a sort of invisible appendage that the Force-user can use to manipulate objects, then I'd say your ideas are fairly reasonable. I've always interpreted it a bit differently - that the Force-user can only manipulate the Force, and can use that ability to achieve various effects such as moving objects at a distance, but can not actually "reach out and grab" the object directly.
Plus, you've put Force Push under the Telekinesis rules. I absolutely agree that Perception shouldn't cover defense against a Force Push, which is part of the reason I made it a separate power.
| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
In Episode III Count Dooku in fact moves Obi-Wan telekinetically with the Force in a couple of different ways. Including throwing him.
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Well spotted. I've scrubbed portions of Episode III from my mind (I have issues with it, particularly the combat) - it's fun to watch, but it's absolute murder on the mechanics of the Star Wars universe, especially when it comes to the Force.
| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
A force user can manipulate multiple objects with the force at the same time
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I've been a little reluctant to allow this, although the ability to do so is supported by the movies. Is it accounted for anywhere in the official West End Games publications?
| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
Manipulation of objects with the force/mind is in fact by definition telekinesis
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All the definitions I've ever seen (and I double-checked at dictionary.com) say that telekinesis is manipulation "by non-physical means" or "by scientifically inexplicable means." If a character uses the Force to create a kinetic wave, which has been my interpretation of Force Push, that's a physical and scientifically measurable means of manipulation (and therefore not technically telekinesis, making this the rest of the reason I split the powers). Does anyone know of an authoritative source that addresses exactly how the Force Push works?
| garhkal wrote: |
As a suggestion. Can we come up with a list of the force powers that affect others and what each person feels should be used to resist it? |
I'm up for that, but should we do that in a different thread? |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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Probabily. I will start one off in house rules for now..
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Jedi Skyler
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| DoubtBreak wrote: |
| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
A force user can manipulate multiple objects with the force at the same time
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I've been a little reluctant to allow this, although the ability to do so is supported by the movies. Is it accounted for anywhere in the official West End Games publications? |
Personally I'd say it's accounted for by the Multiple Action Penalties. Sure, the Force is "maxi-big" and arcane and unknowable by the common citizen. But when you boil it down to its very essence, using the Force to move multiple items simultaneously is like using Danger Sense, Combat Sense, and Lightsaber Combat all at the same time. Or, in even more mundane terms, it's like using a blaster to fire at four different people in one combat round. It's harder, and so incurs penalties. But unless there are ysalamiri floating about, then the Force user is going to be able to Sense everything around them (barring anyone making resistance rolls) and will therefore have an accurate enough mental picture to be able to say, "Ok, I'm going to levitate this cargo crate, that power droid, and the stack of credits on the table there," and actually be
able to do so.
Last edited by Jedi Skyler on Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Luke lifts multiple items when on Dagobah- he lifts rocks and then Artoo.
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DoubtBreak
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| firehawk0220 wrote: |
A force user can manipulate multiple objects with the force at the same time
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Perhaps I worded my response a bit wrong. I was interpreting that as meaning "a character can move multiple objects with a single Telekinesis attempt." Certainly, I'd let a character keep several different uses of Telekinesis "up," but as you two mentioned, that would take several different actions to accomplish. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: |
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I have allwoed the 'moving more than 1 item with one TK attempt' in the past. Taking the heaviest item, then adding to that based of 'half' the diff for the other items...
EG. Moving 3 crates (400lb, 200lb and 70lb). The 400 lb on has a 18 diff of the chart, the 200lb on a 12 diff and the 70 lb one a 6 diff. WE would take the 12/2 =6, and the 6/2 =3 one and add them into the 18 to give us 27 overall.
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I have allwoed the 'moving more than 1 item with one TK attempt' in the past. Taking the heaviest item, then adding to that based of 'half' the diff for the other items...
EG. Moving 3 crates (400lb, 200lb and 70lb). The 400 lb on has a 18 diff of the chart, the 200lb on a 12 diff and the 70 lb one a 6 diff. WE would take the 12/2 =6, and the 6/2 =3 one and add them into the 18 to give us 27 overall. |
I don't even count the weight or mass of the object for the most part. Anything like an X-Wing or a Captial ship is made tougher, just for the mental aspect of trying to do that. Most people wouldn't be able to let go and realize that the X-Wing's weight and mass means nothing to the Force. |
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