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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I think that what he is saying is that the comparison between Sleight of Hand to a sign-language con would be akin to reducing your argument to absurdity by taking your statement concerning "knife handling" and applying it to using melee combat in order to do artistic wood carvings. |
I understand the concept of Reducto Absurdum; I was using it in combination with hyperbole (exaggeration to emphasize one's point) when I suggested what I thought were patently absurd examples of improper skill usage if the skill is allowed to be defined too broadly. Apparently I was overly subtle.
| cheshire wrote: | | Melee combat is a series of feints, deflections, body voids, and positioning allowing you to close with an enemy and deliver damage. It has a lot more gross body mechanics than finely placed minute motor functions. It really doesn't fit as an attack. |
I agree that this is an atypical use of a knife. However, included with all of that combat training will be the basics of how to hold your weapon and how to make the business end go where you want it to go and do what you want it to do. Training will include hundreds if not thousands of repetitions so that a person becomes so familiar with their weapons that it can be wielded as expertly as possible. I find it utterly absurd to posit that atypical skill use (i.e. Using Melee Combat to not stab someone) will somehow invalidate all of that training and familiarity in favor of someone who just happens to be good at picking pockets.
Sleight of Hand also requires practice to reach and maintain a level of skill, and that focus will be on smoothness and subtlety, with a similar degree of repetition as found in Melee Combat, with the goal of picking a pocket without being noticed, or of palming small objects and making them seemingly disappear, all so smoothly as to appear without effort. To say that this extends to hammering a knife into a table in rapid sequence requires a far larger stretch of the imagination than believing that a person trained to use a knife in combat might have some added advantage in performing this trick.
Bottom line, all skills under Dexterity require hand-eye coordination to one degree or another, but they all focus on specific areas of Dexterity, with no one skill intended to be a catch-all or a Dexterity substitute. If no one skill fits, then the Dexterity attribute itself should be used, not one skill being given an overly broad scope.
And yes, certain skills see more use than others, but playing a more balanced game where the more obscure skills get used more often is a matter for discussion with the GM to see if he can provide more opportunities for those skills, not a reshuffling of skill definitions.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2286
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hard to believe a topic covering something that is entirely hypothetical, and not even one that's come up in anybody's game (that we know of) has reached four pages!!! 
Personally, if I had to choose who was going to do the knife trick with my hand/fingers on the table, I'd choose David Blaine over a soldier who was exceedingly skilled in fighting with a knife.
But I think no matter how many people post or argue any points on this issue, crmcneill is determined to get the last word in... 
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Personally I think it's strange decision to have lockpicking under the same skill as palming cards. |
After considering, I tend to agree. Perhaps lock-picking could be paired with contortionist and other techniques used to escape physical restraints. Call it Escape Artist, unless something better comes to mind.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | Hard to believe a topic covering something that is entirely hypothetical, and not even one that's come up in anybody's game (that we know of) has reached four pages!!! |
That's part of why we are such an active community; we will discuss anything even remotely connected to D6 Star Wars ad nauseum.
| Quote: | | Personally, if I had to choose who was going to do the knife trick with my hand/fingers on the table, I'd choose David Blaine over a soldier who was exceedingly skilled in fighting with a knife. |
And what would realistic D6 stats look like for David Blane, I wonder? I seriously doubt that his only relevant skill would be high dice levels in Sleight of Hand. I think it is a mistake to assume that Sleight of Hand is an umbrella skill that automatically covers every facet of stage magic.
| Quote: | | But I think no matter how many people post or argue any points on this issue, crmcneill is determined to get the last word in... |
Actually, I'm waiting to see if anyone can explain the pro Sleight of Hand argument in a manner that doesn't make my head spin. Up to now, what I have heard has all been variations on a theme of..."Melee Combat isn't applicable because this isn't how knives are typically used. Instead, we will redefine Sleight of Hand as broadly as possible so that it can be used in a non-typical manner, even though that was the exact same reason we used to exclude Melee Combat." On top of that, I'm wondering exactly how you are defining Sleight of Hand so that it can do this, as this certainly isn't included in the official description in D6 Space.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: | | So I can play a game of darts with sleight of hand (SoH) then, or a game of mumbley peg? |
| atgxtg wrote: | | Nope, becuase neither of those things involve sleight of hand. |
Except mubley peg is the same thing the object of the game is to throw a knife as close as you can to a target (a stick in the ground or your opponents foot) without actually hitting it.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I disagree. The fact that you are trying or not trying to damage someone makes no difference whatsoever. People aren't trying to damage each other when they are training with weapons, but they are certainly using weapon skills. |
The real reason they don't get hurt is training weapons are padded and/or blunted and protective gear is worn. I've seen plenty of people get dislocations, sprains and busied with pugil sticks.
| atgxtg wrote: | | The thing with the "knife trick" is that it isn't about proficiency with a knife. It's about moving something quickly between your fingers and not hitting yourself. |
And the most gigantic flaw with using sleight of hand for this is that your actually moving something quickly between your fingers and not hitting yourself, not tricking others into believing you are. |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | Personally I think it's strange decision to have lockpicking under the same skill as palming cards. |
After considering, I tend to agree. Perhaps lock-picking could be paired with contortionist and other techniques used to escape physical restraints. Call it Escape Artist, unless something better comes to mind. |
I think this all stemmed from a few of us agreeing that the SW skill of Pickpocket was probably the best catch all for other things that also had really fine motor skills, like Sleight-of-Hand and other similar skills.
FWIW I prefer these skills broken down as separate. That's why when I made a wholesale skill system for another game system (V&V), I made a category of skills called 'Escape', with four different, separate skills under it (all based on Agility). Those four distinct skills are:
Escape Artist
Lockpicking
Pickpocket
Sleight-of-Hand
But SW D6 doesn't give us a breakdown like this, so some of us were attempting to find what we felt was the closest skill, to approximate what was being attempted.
| crmcneill wrote: | | And what would realistic D6 stats look like for David Blane, I wonder? I seriously doubt that his only relevant skill would be high dice levels in Sleight of Hand. I think it is a mistake to assume that Sleight of Hand is an umbrella skill that automatically covers every facet of stage magic. |
David Blaine probably has an incredibly high DEX. In addition, he's really good at Sleight-of-Hand, Lockpicking, Escape Artist, Pick Pocket and any other Legerdemain/Prestidigitation skills. In addition to (probably) a pretty good DEX, he's clearly put points into each of these; enough that he can fool 99% of people most of the time (even when they're looking for it).
But we do get it. You don't find any of those skills as a good umbrella skill for other tricks of this kind. But clearly others of us do (or find it as equal to using Melee Combat, anyway).
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: |
Except mubley peg is the same thing the object of the game is to throw a knife as close as you can to a target (a stick in the ground or your opponents foot) without actually hitting it. |
It's not the same thing. With the knife game, it's about speed. Anybody can do the knife game at slow speed. The trick is doing is fast and not hitting yourself. Hence the reasoning behind sleight of hand.
Sleight of hand is about rapid eye-hand coordination where an error would ruin the trick. It's the "hand is quicker than the eye" type of thing. Which is why I think it is the closest match for the knife game.
With mubley peg, it's not about speed at all but about throwing a knife. And, since you brought that game up, it wouldn't use melee either, but thrown weapons.
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The real reason they don't get hurt is training weapons are padded and/or blunted and protective gear is worn. I've seen plenty of people get dislocations, sprains and busied with pugil sticks. |
Yes, and you missed my point completely. As I said The fact that you are trying or not trying to damage someone makes no difference whatsoever. The type of movements and actions done in combat are not the same as those used for the knife game. Weapon skill doesn't play a factor. Heck, Cooking: Baker is a better match than Melee. At least using a cookie cutter or potato masher is similar to the knife game. Whereas knife fighting completely different - they don't hold or wield the weapon the same way.
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And the most gigantic flaw with using sleight of hand for this is that your actually moving something quickly between your fingers and not hitting yourself, not tricking others into believing you are. |
Where are you getting your definition of Sleight of Hand? It does indeed involve moving object rapidly. It's not that you trick people into thinking you moved object rapidly, but that you such movement to make them believe that something different occurred. But the same skill set applied when doing card trick flourishes. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
Actually, I'm waiting to see if anyone can explain the pro Sleight of Hand argument in a manner that doesn't make my head spin. Up to now, what I have heard has all been variations on a theme of..."Melee Combat isn't applicable because this isn't how knives are typically used. Instead, we will redefine Sleight of Hand as broadly as possible so that it can be used in a non-typical manner, even though that was the exact same reason we used to exclude Melee Combat." On top of that, I'm wondering exactly how you are defining Sleight of Hand so that it can do this, as this certainly isn't included in the official description in D6 Space. |
Then you haven't been listening, and I doubt you are ever going to.
This is exactly like the debate we had over the 0D or 1D default Force attribute awhile back. You had (have) a bielf that a 1D in Force would automatically grant characters the ability to learn Force powers and 0D would not. Despite any reasonably attempts to explain a different point of view you were convinced that your viewpoint was the only way of looking at things.
Now here the debate between which skill is most applicable centers around how each skill is used. Those of us in the Sleight of Hand camp have pointed out that the kind of motions and techniques used in the knife game are not those used in melee combat.
People don't use blades (or pretty much any other weapon) with the business end away from the thumb and forefinger. Not are opponents stationary in combat. The knife game isn't about fighting.
Heck, it's a closer match to play instrument than melee. |
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Where are you getting your definition of Sleight of Hand |
Umm...the commonly used definition from the encyclopedia britannica?" Sleight of hand, also known as prestidigitation ("quick fingers") or legerdemain (from Middle French léger de main, literally "light of hand"), is the set of techniques used by a magician (or card sharp) to manipulate objects such as cards and coins secretly". Key point being that it involves deception on the part of the performer. A "flourish" is a separate type of display of raw speed and agility with no misdirection or deception e.g. the cards look like they are flipping rapidly from one hand to the other because thay actually are flipping rapidly from one hand to the other.
| atgxtg wrote: | | It does indeed involve moving object rapidly. It's not that you trick people into thinking you moved object rapidly, but that you such movement to make them believe that something different occurred. But the same skill set applied when doing card trick flourishes. |
So in the "Aliens Knife Trick" Bishop quickly stabs between fingers "to make them believe that something different occurred." Ok what different occurred?
| atgxtg wrote: | | People don't use blades (or pretty much any other weapon) with the business end away from the thumb and forefinger |
Yes so unused that it has multiple terms used to identify it icepick grip, reverse grip, stabbing grip. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | I think this all stemmed from a few of us agreeing that the SW skill of Pickpocket was probably the best catch all for other things that also had really fine motor skills, like Sleight-of-Hand and other similar skills. |
Was this here on the Pit? I recall a topic about an expanded version of Sleight of Hand that included the four skills you mention below. Considering the breadth of scope of some of the other skills, I would be okay with grouping Sleight of Hand with Pickpocket and Escape Artist with Lock-Picking on the grounds that they have similar goals (manipulation of small objects in a manner that doesn't attract another's attention, and escape from or breaking into physical restraints or barriers). I would prefer to have skills defined as broadly as possible, then allow characters to specialize in sub-sets if they so choose.
As a possible compromise, The Brain mentioned a separate skill called a "flourish" that covers dexterous acts done for speed and show without concealment. I previously mentioned using advanced skills as a way to cross over the boundaries between skills, so perhaps (A) Flourish would be a way to bridge the gap. It would have to have some advantage above and beyond simply allowing the character to perform showy but otherwise useless tricks...
Alternately, if someone were to make Flourish a normal skill which covers showy displays that don't entirely fall under other skills, I could get behind it. It could also cover the ability of gunmen to do the crazy spin-the-blaster-on-your-finger tricks.
In fact, that could be the advantage for the Advanced Skill. The Quickdraw rules in Han Solo & The Corporate Sector allow characters to use their Blaster skill as a dice pool, and a character trained in (A) Flourish would be specially trained not only in flashy moves, but doing them quickly, and could stack their Flourish dice with their weapon skill for speed draws (including Iaijutsu-type techniques for Melee Combat), as well as stacking for showy displays like the Bishop knife trick.
EDIT: Maybe it could even stack with Intimidation, using the showy moves to make opponents back down...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Then you haven't been listening, and I doubt you are ever going to. |
If by "listening", you mean "not convinced by your faulty attempts to convince me that being trained to put the point of a knife where you want it to go has nothing to do with being able to put the point of a knife where you want it to go," then no, probably not. I'm also not prepared to accept your assertion that a knife can't be wielded this way in combat.
| Quote: | | This is exactly like the debate we had over the 0D or 1D default Force attribute awhile back. You had (have) a bielf that a 1D in Force would automatically grant characters the ability to learn Force powers and 0D would not. Despite any reasonably attempts to explain a different point of view you were convinced that your viewpoint was the only way of looking at things. |
Actually, it was because I was convinced that your version was flawed and would introduce unnecessary contradictions and complications into the rules for no other reason than to satisfy your own view of what a Force Attribute should represent, as opposed to an optional rule that would fit as seamlessly as possible with the RAW without excessive modification. But that's okay; I've moved past it. If you feel the need to rehash it, feel free to bring it up in the appropriate topic.
| Quote: | | Now here the debate between which skill is most applicable centers around how each skill is used. Those of us in the Sleight of Hand camp have pointed out that the kind of motions and techniques used in the knife game are not those used in melee combat. |
The problem being that the exact same reasons you are using to disqualify Melee Combat also disqualify Sleight of Hand, only more so. Not only is this not a manner in which Sleight of Hand is typically used, Sleight of Hand covers subtle movements and fine motor control, not hammering a knife into a table, which is about as far from subtle as one can get. Melee Combat is at least somewhat on topic in that it includes training with knives, while Sleight of Hand is only truly related in the same sense that all other skills under the Dexterity attribute are related, in that they all involve dexterity and hand-eye coordination in one form or another. Nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand in real-world sources (thank you, Brain) or the description of the skill in D6 Space covers the ability to do this; all the difficulty modifiers are based on the watchfulness of observers or on the complexity of the lock being picked.
Granted, Sleight of Hand does permit the user to deftly manipulate small objects, but to say that that includes this trick opens the door to massive abuse. After all, if you can manipulate any small object deftly, why can't you use it to fire a small blaster pistol? Hey, it's a small object, too.
As I have said before, if he was using Sleight of Hand to pick a knife off someone without them noticing, or if he used it to conceal a small knife in his hand without anyone noticing, I would agree that it is the appropriate skill. But that's not what he was doing. And as I said above, the technicalities that you used to disqualify Melee Combat apply even more strongly to Sleight of Hand, in that you aren't using the skill for its intended purpose.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Was this here on the Pit? |
Yep, it sure was, and just last month. Ironically enough, I never even commented in that thread, but you did multiple times.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Was this here on the Pit? |
Yep, it sure was, and just last month. Ironically enough, I never even commented in that thread, but you did multiple times. |
Just reread the topic; the only thing that comes close to this is in the initial post, where Sleight of Hand / Manipulation is described as " doing anything else that requires a steady hand and coordination." Unfortunately, by this definition, that is almost everything under the Dexterity attribute. The only official description (D6 Space) is much more limited.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Where are you getting your definition of Sleight of Hand |
Umm...the commonly used definition from the encyclopedia britannica?" Sleight of hand, also known as prestidigitation ("quick fingers") or legerdemain (from Middle French léger de main, literally "light of hand"), is the set of techniques used by a magician (or card sharp) to manipulate objects such as cards and coins secretly". Key point being that it involves deception on the part of the performer. A "flourish" is a separate type of display of raw speed and agility with no misdirection or deception e.g. the cards look like they are flipping rapidly from one hand to the other because thay actually are flipping rapidly from one hand to the other. |
But the "deception" on the part of sleight of hand is due to very fast and precise manipulation of the object. It's not just a con job. The perfromer really is manipulating the object.
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So in the "Aliens Knife Trick" Bishop quickly stabs between fingers "to make them believe that something different occurred." Ok what different occurred? |
Nothing. Nor does it have to. I think our disagreement here on skill choice is that you believe that sleight of hand must involve some sort of misdirection. It doesn't. The same skill set used to make a coin "magically" appear could just as easily be used to rapidly produce any object. This deception isn't in the pysical techniques, but in the presentation and claims of magic.
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Yes so unused that it has multiple terms used to identify it icepick grip, reverse grip, stabbing grip. |
Find me a real combat style that actually uses any of those terms. And while you at it, why don't we switch the skill to cooking? Since icepick is a cooking tool, not a weapon?
I believe that what skill to use should be based upon the task attempted, not the tool being used. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
If by "listening", you mean "not convinced by your faulty attempts to convince me that being trained to put the point of a knife where you want it to go has nothing to do with being able to put the point of a knife where you want it to go," then no, probably not. |
So how you are trained to use something has no bearing on what you are doing with it, only the destination is important?
What is somebody is trying to pry open a lock with a knife-should they use melee? Or turn a screw with a knife? Melee? Or turn a screw with a coin? Value? Or what if they are doing the trick with a pencil or a breadstick?
On top on that, since melee is an unbrella skill, you are ended up saying that someone skilled in batttle axe, or halberd is good at this trick.
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I'm also not prepared to accept your assertion that a knife can't be wielded this way in combat. |
That isn't my assertion. My assertion is that trained fighting styles don't use a knife that way. A knife can be used in lots of ways, but not all of them are how the knife should be used, or ways that someone would be trained in using it. Since the argument here is that skill and training applies then the case has to be made that the training recieved is relevant to the way the knife is going to be used.
| Quote: | | This is exactly like the debate we had over the 0D or 1D default Force attribute awhile back. You had (have) a bielf that a 1D in Force would automatically grant characters the ability to learn Force powers and 0D would not. Despite any reasonably attempts to explain a different point of view you were convinced that your viewpoint was the only way of looking at things. |
Actually, it was because I was convinced that your version was flawed and would introduce unnecessary contradictions and complications into the rules for no other reason than to satisfy your own view of what a Force Attribute should represent, as opposed to an optional rule that would fit as seamlessly as possible with the RAW without excessive modification. But that's okay; I've moved past it. If you feel the need to rehash it, feel free to bring it up in the appropriate topic.
I'm not. And again you have tunnel vsion. My point here is that "you were convinced that your viewpoint was the only way of looking at things."
And you're rely just proves my point. You are indeed convinced that your own view is correct and that any other view is unacceptable and leads to gloom and doom.
Back then you claimed that a 1D starting score would contradict the way the Force was presented in Star Wars and cause all sorts of complications. Now you are claiming that using Sleight of Hand for the knife trick would turn it into a superskill and cause all sorts of complications.
I sense a pattern.
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The problem being that the exact same reasons you are using to disqualify Melee Combat also disqualify Sleight of Hand, only more so. Not only is this not a manner in which Sleight of Hand is typically used, |
Yes it is. GO watch some magicians. They routinely perform dangerous tricks with knifes that invlove sleight of hand. It's not all smoke and mirrors.
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Sleight of Hand covers subtle movements and fine motor control, not hammering a knife into a table, which is about as far from subtle as one can get. |
It's not all subtle. In fact, much of it wouldn't work if it were subtle.
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Melee Combat is at least somewhat on topic in that it includes training with knives, while Sleight of Hand is only truly related in the same sense that all other skills under the Dexterity attribute are related, in that they all involve dexterity and hand-eye coordination in one form or another. Nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand in real-world sources (thank you, Brain) or the description of the skill in D6 Space covers the ability to do this; all the difficulty modifiers are based on the watchfulness of observers or on the complexity of the lock being picked. |
What does the kinfe have to do with it? If he did the trick with a comlink would you use communications?
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Granted, Sleight of Hand does permit the user to deftly manipulate small objects, but to say that that includes this trick opens the door to massive abuse. After all, if you can manipulate any small object deftly, why can't you use it to fire a small blaster pistol? Hey, it's a small object, too. |
Oh come on. Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. We allow people with medicine to use knifes to perform surgery? does that mean they can use medicine to wield a knife in combat?
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As I have said before, if he was using Sleight of Hand to pick a knife off someone without them noticing, or if he used it to conceal a small knife in his hand without anyone noticing, I would agree that it is the appropriate skill. But that's not what he was doing. And as I said above, the technicalities that you used to disqualify Melee Combat apply even more strongly to Sleight of Hand, in that you aren't using the skill for its intended purpose. |
The intended purpose of sleight of hand, form a presentation point of view is to impress the audience. And that is alll this trick is, a presentation. The point of melee combat is to injure the opponent with your weapon.
Now if bishop couldn't manage to hit his own, stationary, hand, with a knife at point blank range, despite multiple attempts that is hardly evidence of a high combat skill.
I'd rather see both skills eliminated that see the knife trick as an example of good combat skill. |
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