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ebertran Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 202 Location: Miami, FL
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | You see the problem with game mechanics undermining player free will over their characters and dice rolls overriding roleplaying. |
I do.
I'm trying to understand how other GMs go about it.
I don't necessarily like that, at all, I'd rather give them a mechanical penalty and get on with it. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | ebertran wrote: | How do you make NPCs intimidate PCs? Do you force PCs to say things they dont want to? |
You see the problem with game mechanics undermining player free will over their characters and dice rolls overriding roleplaying. |
There are many game systems that have that though.. Such as 'dominate and presence' for whitewolf's vampire the masquerade, to charm person and the like in ADND.. Heck with affect or control mind i can do the same in star wars..
As for intimidation from NPCs its imo a roll off of the NPC's intimidate vs the PC's willpower.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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MrNexx Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016 Posts: 2248 Location: San Antonio
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Whill wrote: | ebertran wrote: | How do you make NPCs intimidate PCs? Do you force PCs to say things they dont want to? |
You see the problem with game mechanics undermining player free will over their characters and dice rolls overriding roleplaying. |
There are many game systems that have that though.. Such as 'dominate and presence' for whitewolf's vampire the masquerade, to charm person and the like in ADND.. Heck with affect or control mind i can do the same in star wars..
As for intimidation from NPCs its imo a roll off of the NPC's intimidate vs the PC's willpower.. |
Personally, I'm coming to like the rule that either rewards characters who go along with things like intimidation by NPCs, or punishes those who don't. Because while you can say "It's overriding role-playing to penalize a character when their player decides that they're not going to be intimidated", you can equally say "You're devaluing Intimidate and Willpower when any player can decide 'I won't be intimidated, no matter what.'"
Having Initmidation result in a stunned result (or similar numerical penalties) lets folks still make their choices, but those choices have consequences. "Sure, you can try to fight Vader but, Bob, you failed your Willpower roll against his Intimidation. Everyone else will be fighting normally, but Bob will take a 1D penalty until he injures Vader." Bob might still stand up to Vader, because Bob is brave and won't buckle under... but he's at a disadvantage because he didn't invest in Willpower. _________________ "I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Giving this some more thought. Maybe use the damage table in this case. Granted its mental but damage no less.
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Stunned: -1D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of this round and the next.
Wounded 1 an 2: -1D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the scene.
Incapacitated: -2D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the episode.
Mortally Wounded: -3D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator permanently.
Killed: -3D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator permanently. Will automatically obey instruction from the intimidator.
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_________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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This is why i like how Sparks handled it.. For each grouping of 10 over the willpower (or Kno) roll the intimidator gets, the opponents suffer -1d to their actions...
So in the off chance someone faces off against an enemy with a high @$$ intimidate (say 10d), has a # of bonuses on his side (using the chart for bargaining and other Per skills), facing people with 3-4d ave willpower, he theoretically (without open ending on the wild die) could hit 40-50 over willpower on his intimidation roll.. Thus giving them a -4d or -5d penalty! _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | So in the off chance someone faces off against an enemy with a high @$$ intimidate (say 10d), has a # of bonuses on his side (using the chart for bargaining and other Per skills), facing people with 3-4d ave willpower, he theoretically (without open ending on the wild die) could hit 40-50 over willpower on his intimidation roll.. Thus giving them a -4d or -5d penalty! |
With what I just proposed you could do pretty much the same thing.
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Stun: -1D to all Perception-based interpersonal and combat skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of this round and the next.
Wound 1: -1D to all Perception-based interpersonal and combat skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the scene.
Wound 2: -2D to all Perception-based interpersonal and combat skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the scene.
Incapacitated: -3D to all Perception-based interpersonal and combat skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the episode.
Mortally Wounded: -4D to all Perception-based interpersonal and combat skill checks versus the intimidator permanently.
Killed: -5D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator the intimidator permanently. Cannot attack or lie and will automatically obey instructions from the intimidator.
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_________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter |
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MrNexx Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016 Posts: 2248 Location: San Antonio
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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shootingwomprats wrote: | Giving this some more thought. Maybe use the damage table in this case. Granted its mental but damage no less.
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Stunned: -1D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of this round and the next.
Wounded 1 an 2: -1D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the scene.
Incapacitated: -2D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator for the rest of the episode.
Mortally Wounded: -3D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator permanently.
Killed: -3D to all Perception-based interpersonal skill checks versus the intimidator permanently. Will automatically obey instruction from the intimidator.
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I would include not just Perception based skills, but also Willpower, since that resists Perception skills. _________________ "I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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shootingwomprats Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 2690 Location: Online
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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MrNexx wrote: | I would include not just Perception based skills, but also Willpower, since that resists Perception skills. |
I thought about this but how would the character recover from being intimated? I get what your saying, but in practical application it would be very hard.
Lets start by assuming that most players are not taking willpower and therefore use it at the attribute default. This holds true of standard mooks as well. Average mook has 2D in Knowledge, meaning they would resist intimidation with 2D. Unfortunately most players will use Knowledge a semi-dump attribute, you will see maybe 2D to 2D+2 unless the attribute has a bunch of skills their character is built upon.
So, let us say then, that an average Joe has 2D and the average players a little higher and round up to 3D. Average rolls by a hero could be 10-11 without the use of a Character Point or an exploding Wild die. Putting them on the lower end of Moderate difficulty. To really start having lasting effects they must fail by 9 and for something truly horrendous, by 16.
That works out be an intimidation roll of 16/23 for average folk and 19-20/26-27 for heroes.
I would say recovery Target Difficulty would be the amount they lost by. That would be a tall order to overcome. _________________ Don Diestler
Host, Shooting Womp Rats
The D6 Podcast
http://d6holocron.com/shootingwomprats
@swd6podcast, Twitter |
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MrNexx Rear Admiral
Joined: 25 Mar 2016 Posts: 2248 Location: San Antonio
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, but then there's the other side... someone who has been intimidated can't Persuade or Bargain with their opponent (they've got a big penalty to their skills), but they aren't any more likely to be persuaded... they just get a penalty to try to affect the person, and then only through social interaction. Someone who is intimidated has no problem just shooting their intimidator... they're only handicapped from acting on them socially. _________________ "I've Seen Your Daily Routine. You Are Not Busy!"
“We're going to win this war, not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.”
http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/ |
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Error Captain
Joined: 01 May 2005 Posts: 680 Location: Any blackberry patch.
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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ebertran wrote: | How do you make NPCs intimidate PCs? Do you force PCs to say things they dont want to? |
You can't really do that, but you can start killing them. They tend to respond to that, especially if it is an advanced character and they know that the dice are not capable of sentiment. Maybe that's a little nihilistic of me, but I think it reflects a grittier and more realistic (to me, at least) SWU.
Tangentially, after reading descriptions of the live-action show they had in the works for a while, and what flavors of scripts they had...I really hope they get produced. Or at least released at some point for us to read. Disney seems to be playing that one close to the belt. They may be making animation deals with ILM, Pixar et. al. on the side, who knows. _________________ The only words of explanation you need for any concept in the entire Star Wars universe are the words Science Fiction and Space Opera. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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shootingwomprats wrote: | garhkal wrote: | So in the off chance someone faces off against an enemy with a high @$$ intimidate (say 10d), has a # of bonuses on his side (using the chart for bargaining and other Per skills), facing people with 3-4d ave willpower, he theoretically (without open ending on the wild die) could hit 40-50 over willpower on his intimidation roll.. Thus giving them a -4d or -5d penalty! |
With what I just proposed you could do pretty much the same thing.
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You could, however your penalties seem to 'ramp up' a LOT quicker.
Heck even at -1d to someone's rolls per 5 over, its still a good charting..
MrNexx wrote: | Yes, but then there's the other side... someone who has been intimidated can't Persuade or Bargain with their opponent (they've got a big penalty to their skills), but they aren't any more likely to be persuaded... they just get a penalty to try to affect the person, and then only through social interaction. Someone who is intimidated has no problem just shooting their intimidator... they're only handicapped from acting on them socially. |
Hence to Me that intimidate penalty affects all rolls (except soaks!) _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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ebertran Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 202 Location: Miami, FL
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the answer is bribing the characters to play along with the results, in exchange for character points, or even force points (in case of Intimidate: Torture).
There has to be some benefit to the player to make up for the loss of player's free will. |
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ebertran Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 202 Location: Miami, FL
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:44 am Post subject: |
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How's this? It gives the PC's mechanical disadvantages, but balances out by giving them chances to remove the effects via Willpower checks, or by spending character points. Character points are interesting, because you need them to advance, so not using them to immediately remove an Intimidation can represent the NPC's ongoing psychological effect on the character.
NPC Intimidation vs. PC Willpower
NPC rolls higher than the character by:
1-5: -1D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator for the rest of this scene. If in combat, PCs can use use an Action to compose themselves and immediately remove the effect. Outside of combat, PCs can attempt one Easy Willpower roll to immediately remove the effect.
6-10: -2D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator for the rest of the scene. Outside of combat, PCs can spend one character point to immediately remove effect, or attempt one Moderate Willpower roll to immediately remove the effect.
11-15: -3D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator for the rest of the scene. Outside of combat, PCs can spend two character points to immediately remove effect, or attempt one Difficult Willpower roll to immediately remove the effect.
16-20: -4D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator for the rest of the scene. Outside of combat, PCs can spend three character points to immediately remove effect, or attempt one Very Difficult Willpower roll to immediately remove the effect.
21-25: -5D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator permanently. Outside of combat, PCs can spend four character points to immediately remove the effect, or attempt one Heroic Willpower roll to immediately remove the effect.
26+: -6D to all skill checks while in the presence of the intimidator permanently. Outside of combat, PCs can spend five character points to immediately remove the effect.
All effects of Intimidation automatically end if the Intimidator is Mortally Wounded or Killed.
I would probably apply the same system to PC vs. NPC, although some NPCs do not have Char Points.
Thoughts? |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14213 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:14 am Post subject: |
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ebertran wrote: | Maybe the answer is bribing the characters to play along with the results, in exchange for character points, or even force points (in case of Intimidate: Torture).
There has to be some benefit to the player to make up for the loss of player's free will. |
Why should there be a reward for them having to RP their character being scared cause of someone using a skill successfully on them?
Do you have to reward them cause they got hit by control mind? Charm person? _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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ebertran Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 202 Location: Miami, FL
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:20 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, players do not like being told that their character feels intimidated or scared. Nobody likes being told how to act. |
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