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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:24 pm Post subject: I hold NO stats to be "canon" |
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WEG made Wookiees with totally bad-@$$ claws (a whopping +2D to climbing on top of a high STR), but they can't use them in combat. That's like putting a bowl of candy in the middle of a room full of kids and telling them they can't have any. Kinda stupid to put the candy there in the first place.
As Wookiees are shown in RotS to live in trees, it is logical that the species may have evolved in trees. The non-filmic Wookiee claws are a purely an EU creation, but it is logical that if Wookiees evolved in and still live in trees that they might have retractable claws for climbing. Now climbing is a Strength skill so most Wookiee characters are going to have a good climbing ability from the base attribute alone. In my game, I have kept the claws but minimized them to only +2 to aid in climbing when able to use the claws. And as a general rule in my game for statting out species, claws that were not meant for attacking and provide less than +1D to climbing do not provide any bonus to damage when attacking. You could further rationilze this by saying that the use of the claws is a somewhat instinctual thing so they only naturally come out when climbing, as an explaination for why they aren't used for combat.
I think the honor thing was just a way to deal with the problem of giving them such bad-@$$ climbing claws that we never see Chewie use in the films. Instead of using the strained explaination for something extreme I just eliminated the extremity and thus removed the need for the explaination in the first place. Wookiees are bad-asses in STR, brawling and climbing, so don't need high bonuses for those things.
On a somewhat related note, I completely eliminated the berserker rage ability. Wookiees sometimes lose their temper, but I don't think they need any bonuses to fighting. There is no solid basis for berserker-level rage present in the films. I think players of Wookiee characters can just roleplay their anger, and if they don't get any bonuses then they also don't have to make any Perception rolls to regain their temper and end the rage. Player just roleplay when Wookiees get angry, what they do while angry and when they calm back down.
Now I'm not just the Ebenezer Scrooge for aliens! In my game, I give Wookiees bonuses to (1) understand non-Wookiee Languages spoken to them (to compensate for not being able to speak non-Wookiee languages), (2) Intimidation rolls due to their reputation, (3) Perception and Search checks related to the sense of smell, (4) natural healing frequency and checks (think I got that from WotC), and (5) Astrogation checks. All of these things are derived from fluff text that does not contradict film canon and even supports it. And none of these abilities are stupid like berserker rage and +2D claws (IMHO). 8)
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:56 am Post subject: |
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Interesting take Whill and there are parts of it I like. I like lowering the bonus for claws, since we never see Chewiee wave any claws around. And I agree the whole honor thing just seems like a last minute patch. Given the arboreal nature of Wookiees (both in the movies and in the EU) I'd be fine with a climbing bonus that is predominantly based on having long arms, strong muscles, and a lot of practice rather then cat-like claws. Chimps and Orangutans climb far better than their human cousins even without having big old retractable claws. 
Regarding the beserk rage: so your Wookiees aren't any more likely to get angry than any other sentients and the fierce Wookiee reputation is just based on the species generally having a high STR?
And in the films it isn't that Han needed to repeatedly calm Chewie down bacause there was some danger that getting a Wookiee angry would cause an uncontrollable burst of rage, it was just that Chewie's player tended to react by always wanting to start a melee and Han's player was a little more tactically minded about when he wanted Chewie to start a melee and when he just wanted to use the walking carpet to intimidate people.
I think this may be going too far, for me at least. Chewiee seems pretty fierce in Episodes IV-VI with Han on several occasions needing to temper Chewies seemingly instinctual rage. We might attribute that to an individual reaction, except that that seems consistent with Wookiees reputation and in Episode III we clearly see a bunch of defending Wookies leave their prepared defensive positions on the beach and in the trees to frontally charge into the fire of the attacking droids. Personally I prefer to think this is a berserk attack rather than just a total lack of intelligent tactics by the Wookiees.
Last edited by Bren on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed. IMO the BR of a wookie is as much a defining aspect of them as their fur... PLUS it gets them into hot water especially with DSPS..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Wookie Claus? Is is Life Day already?  |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10530
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Interesting take Whill and there are parts of it I like. I like lowering the bonus for claws, since we never see Chewiee wave any claws around. And I agree the whole honor thing just seems like a last minute patch. Given the arboreal nature of Wookiees (both in the movies and in the EU) I'd be fine with a climbing bonus that is predominantly based on having long arms, strong muscles, and a lot of practice rather then cat-like claws. Chimps and Orangutans climb far better than their human cousins even without having big old retractable claws. |
Good point about primates.
| Bren wrote: | | Regarding the beserk rage: so your Wookiees aren't any more likely to get angry than any other sentients and the fierce Wookiee reputation is just based on the species generally having a high STR? |
That is not at all what I am saying. Most Wookiees are more likely to get angry than most sentients most of the time. But in my game it is not governed by game mechanics.
Many alien species in Star Wars have personality/behavioral tendancies that are mainly story factors/roleplaying considerations in the game. Aqualish tend to be aggressive. Ithorians tend to be peaceful and revere nature. Neimoidians tend to be greedy. Quarren tend to be pragmatic. Trandoshan tend to hate Wookiees. Wroonians tend to be adventurous. What this usually means in the game is that most NPCs members of the species will behave in manners along the line of these tendancies most of the time when roleplayed by the GM. And for PCs, the players may choose to play against the type (say a generous and giving Neimoidian or a calm Wookiee), but the player will have to devise an explaination in the background of the PC as to how and why this particular member of that species is different from the norm. None of this requires game mechanics.
A player of a more typical Wookiee in my game can still choose to roleplay his PC going into a "rage" when in situations appropriate to do so, but the PC doesn't get any bonuses to STR or penalties to other skills, nor does the player have to roll Perception to end the behavior. Players in my game are still expected to roleplay their characters of any species appropriate to his character's background (which includes choice of species). Does that clear things up any on Wookiees in my game?
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Yep. Thanks. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | and the fierce Wookiee reputation is just based on the species generally having a high STR? |
I was planning on but forgot to respond to that specifically. To explicitely answer that, no. Their angry use of that Strength is a part of their reputation too. Here is the actual wording I use in my Wookiee Special Ability regarding reputation...
| Quote: | | Fearsome Reputation: Wookiees are widely regarded as fierce savages with short tempers, and this reputation gives them a +1D bonus to all Intimidation checks against non-Wookiees. |
Perhap the "berserker" rage is part of their reputation in my SWU. Although there is some basis in truth in it, I do also see the Wookiee reputation as a bit more "savage" then they actually are. Wookiees have a sophisticated culture, although many others don't see that because they live in trees and don't wear a lot of clothes. In my SWU, Wookiees are generally very honorable and even kind... just don't make them mad. I think that Wookiee do encourage their fierce reputation, and if they're not truly enraged I feel they like using their reputation to intimidate potential enemies into thinking twice about starting something with them, which actually prevents or at least minimizes "unpleasant confrontations" when possible.
I interpret the scene in the Falcon en route to the Alderaan system to mostly be Han just teasing the droids a bit just for fun. Would Chewbacca really have torn R2's legs off if R2 won in hologame they were playing? No, I personally don't think so. The droids were not an enemy or a threat, and there was no danger to the owner of his life debt or honor family. But when 3PO tells R2 to let the Wookiee win, Chewie just leans back and smiles (or the Wookiee equivalent of smiling).
But I'm not trying to suggest that my interpretation of Wookiees in the game is better than WEG's or anyone else's. I'm just throwing my views along with everyone else's into the great big melting pot that is the Rancor Pit. If +2D claws and heavily mechanical "Beserker" Rage works for your game, then good for you! To each his own.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with your interpretation of holochess scene on the Millenium Falcon. Han and Chewie were teasing the gullible - C-3P0 directly and, I suspect, Luke indirectly. Clearly this is not a scene that supports the notion of a Wookiee rage.
The scene where Han has to calm Chewie down in the carbon freeze chamber on Bespin is one that does spring to mind. Obviously other explanations are possible, but it does seem like Chewie is about to leap into a rage with no thought to the consequence to himself or those (like Han and Leia) who are with him. Another scene is in RotS where we see the Wookiees charging out of their prepared defensive positions on the beach and in the trees to attack the Separatist forces in close quarters combat. Tactically a charge makes some sense if Wookiees get a berserk close quarters bonus. It makes very little tactical sense if they don't get any such bonus.
Of course one can rationalize these scenes away without the need for a berserk rage, but I think the WEG berserk rage fits the scene in ESB and it actually predicts the Wookiee's tactics in RotS. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Of course one can rationalize these scenes away without the need for a berserk rage |
At least one does. 8)
| Bren wrote: | | I think the WEG berserk rage fits the scene in ESB |
I agree it does fit, and that scene was probably the main inspiration for the mechanic. But it could also be interpreted as Chewbacca just lost his temper. Wookiees are known to do that.
| Bren wrote: | Another scene is in RotS where we see the Wookiees charging out of their prepared defensive positions on the beach and in the trees to attack the Separatist forces in close quarters combat. Tactically a charge makes some sense if Wookiees get a berserk close quarters bonus. It makes very little tactical sense if they don't get any such bonus.
...the WEG berserk rage... actually predicts the Wookiee's tactics in RotS. |
By "close quarters" I think you refer to brawling/melee in which the Wookiees would get the benefit of the STR bonus the berserker rage provides, as opposed to range combant. Perhaps, even without a berserker bonus, the Wookiees do more damage in close quarters than bowcasters would, and/or they have a better odds to hit than range combat due to skill and difficulty levels involved. Or maybe those particular Wookiees on the beach were part of a unit of warriors that specializes in brawling/melee, and the bowcaster "archer" unit was offscreen shooting from a distance. Or maybe it was strictly a cultural thing that Wookiees prefer to face their enemies head on in close quarters regardless of actually tactical advantage. There are a lot of possible explainations.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | By "close quarters" I think you refer to brawling/melee in which the Wookiees would get the benefit of the STR bonus the berserker rage provides, as opposed to range combant. Perhaps, even without a berserker bonus, the Wookiees do more damage in close quarters than bowcasters would, and/or they have a better odds to hit than range combat due to skill and difficulty levels involved. Or maybe those particular Wookiees on the beach were part of a unit of warriors that specializes in brawling/melee, and the bowcaster "archer" unit was offscreen shooting from a distance. Or maybe it was strictly a cultural thing that Wookiees prefer to face their enemies head on in close quarters regardless of actually tactical advantage. There are a lot of possible explainations. |
When testing theories against each other one often resorts to Occam's Razor, i.e. simplicity as a determining factor. Wookiee rage is, I would maintain, simpler than needed several explanations for the behavior in films. But in addition there is a second feature that is more important than simplicity and that is the ability to predict. Wookie rage, I maintain, allows one to predict the behavior of the Wookiees we see in RotS (which was created after the WEG rules). I think the Wookiee rage theory is superior as a theory explaining the Wookiee behavior we see in the films on those two grounds.
Now let me also be clear, I am in no way trying to argue that the way Whill and his players play Wookiees is wrong. Based on his writings, I have a lot of respect for Whill and his style of play shares many similarities with a style that I prefer. I am just playing with logic, the rules, and the films in a way that I hope Whill will appreciate. |
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Gamer
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: |
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The wookies on the beach were certanly not 'enraged' or acted anything of the sort.
They acted exactly like the close quarter brawlers they are.
Wookies do not fly into a total out of control rage at the drop of a hat, loosing your temper is one thing 'enragement' is completely another.
The fluff on beserker rage is pretty specific and ROTS did not show any such enragement, the battle had just begun so the wookies could not have had time to work themselves into frenzy and they certainly didn't behave like they were.
If somebody told me at the table they thought the beach scene in ROTS was a clear sign of wookie enragement i wouldn't let them play a wookie until they learned what enragement really was. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Gamer wrote: | | If somebody told me at the table they thought the beach scene in ROTS was a clear sign of wookie enragement i wouldn't let them play a wookie until they learned what enragement really was. |
Is that intended to be funny? |
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Gamer
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Do you see me laughing. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Gamer wrote: | | Do you see me laughing. |
No. I just thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt before pointing out that your unsupported assertion that the "wookies on the beach were certanly not 'enraged' or acted anything of the sort" is singularly uncompelling. What is your evidence for your assertion? What is your alternate explanation for the Wookiee's frontal charge of an oncoming opponent rather than the tactically more prudent and effective choice of shooting from cover? What do you think a clear sign of Wookiee enragement looks like and why? What film or other examples do you have to support your point of view?
| Gamer wrote: | | If somebody told me at the table they thought the beach scene in ROTS was a clear sign of wookie enragement i wouldn't let them play a wookie until they learned what enragement really was. |
Perhaps you would share your insightful version of the meaning of enragement with the rest of us poor unenlightened players so that one day we too may be deemed fit to play at your table. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Of the scenes we saw of wookies, only the ESB one with Chewie would imo count as a poss going into rage..
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