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Ejacobs
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
Location: Afghanistan...Again
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 Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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How would someone piloting a starship that is trying to take off and being held by a tractor beam resist the tractor beam's pull?
Now, same question, but ship is being held by a Jedi Master? What does the pilot use to resist?
Does someone roll their perception or strength to hold on to a blaster that the Jedi is trying to rip from their hands and smash against the wall?
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14327
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Hull for the ship versus tractor beam, and str versus the tk.. for the latter. For a ship, it would be TK.
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Ejacobs wrote: | How would someone piloting a starship that is trying to take off and being held by a tractor beam resist the tractor beam's pull?
Now, same question, but ship is being held by a Jedi Master? What does the pilot use to resist?
Does someone roll their perception or strength to hold on to a blaster that the Jedi is trying to rip from their hands and smash against the wall?
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1. They would try to shoot a proton torp or concussion missle down the tractor beam. Destroy the emitter, destroy the beam.
2. The pilot would use the thrusters. The harder the thrusters are pushing, the more difficult it becomes for the Master to hold the ship. Perhaps even rocking the ship back and forth; the Master might have an even harder time with that added dimension.
3. Strength. You can't hold on to a blaster with thought alone- unless you happen to have Telekinesis. |
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| Fehya wrote: | Your opinions?
I can see why Control can be allowed to resist it, but Perception? |
It shouldn't be. Telekinesis should only be resistable by Force sensitive characters, and only through the use of their control skill, which would have to beat the telekinesis roll that it's going against.
| Boomer wrote: | You have to recognize and sense how the hold is working, like fighting through an invisible maze.
When you are held with telekinesis, you are simply held. Strength avails nothing as you are not held by an opposing strength, but the same force that binds matter togethor in the first place. And someone else just said to physics "Make the matter right there hold still."
So you have to perceive and move out of this command, not brute through it. |
Now, if you are talking about a Perception roll being able used as kind of a dodge against Telekinesis I can see where you are coming from, but I I have to say that I think that's BS. I seriously doubt a non-force sensistive character could perceive a Force based attack because they are like you and me and do not perceive such things. It's beyond their capabilities.
| garhkal wrote: | | Hull for the ship versus tractor beam, and str versus the tk.. for the latter. For a ship, it would be TK. |
I don't see this as the case at all. The Force isn't something you can "out muscle". The Force isn't like that at all. It is an energy field with no limit to it's strength.
Once a Jedi or other Force user realizes this, size, speed and the dynamics of the object are meaningless. |
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DoubtBreak
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| Firehawk0220 wrote: |
I don't see this as the case at all. The Force isn't something you can "out muscle". The Force isn't like that at all. It is an energy field with no limit to it's strength.
Once a Jedi or other Force user realizes this, size, speed and the dynamics of the object are meaningless. |
True, but to make a subtle distinction, a person doesn't have to resist the limitless power of the Force; he or she only has to resist the other person's manipulations of it. Force skill dice don't represent raw Force energy, they're a measure of mental discipline and finesse. I can't, at the moment, come up with a good pseudo-scientific explanation for what characters are doing when they make their Perception rolls to resist Telekinesis, but they're resisting the skill with which the Force-user is manipulating the energy field, not the energy field itself.
At least, that's how I've always interpreted it. To be sure, a lot of this is just a rationalization of game mechanics that are in place purely to make the D6 SWRPG rules a little more balanced instead of having all Force-users be uber-powerful. |
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Why is Perception allowed to resist Telekinesis? |
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| DoubtBreak wrote: | | Firehawk0220 wrote: |
I don't see this as the case at all. The Force isn't something you can "out muscle". The Force isn't like that at all. It is an energy field with no limit to it's strength.
Once a Jedi or other Force user realizes this, size, speed and the dynamics of the object are meaningless. |
True, but to make a subtle distinction, a person doesn't have to resist the limitless power of the Force; he or she only has to resist the other person's manipulations of it. Force skill dice don't represent raw Force energy, they're a measure of mental discipline and finesse. I can't, at the moment, come up with a good pseudo-scientific explanation for what characters are doing when they make their Perception rolls to resist Telekinesis, but they're resisting the skill with which the Force-user is manipulating the energy field, not the energy field itself.
At least, that's how I've always interpreted it. To be sure, a lot of this is just a rationalization of game mechanics that are in place purely to make the D6 SWRPG rules a little more balanced instead of having all Force-users be uber-powerful. |
That last part is the real reason. For balance. I completely re-wrote the Force rules for that reason. I didn't think the standard rules reflected the capabilities of the Jedi and placed too many limitations on them.
Jedi are uber powerful. Anyone whos seen the movies can tell you that. Regular people haven't got much of a chance one on one. Oddly, I have no force using player characters right now. The rules I wrote aren't any more complicated than the standard D6 rules, but the Jedi are quite a bit more powerful. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14327
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Fehya wrote:
Your opinions?
I can see why Control can be allowed to resist it, but Perception?
It shouldn't be. Telekinesis should only be resistable by Force sensitive characters, and only through the use of their control skill, which would have to beat the telekinesis roll that it's going against.
Boomer wrote:
You have to recognize and sense how the hold is working, like fighting through an invisible maze.
When you are held with telekinesis, you are simply held. Strength avails nothing as you are not held by an opposing strength, but the same force that binds matter togethor in the first place. And someone else just said to physics "Make the matter right there hold still."
So you have to perceive and move out of this command, not brute through it.
Now, if you are talking about a Perception roll being able used as kind of a dodge against Telekinesis I can see where you are coming from, but I I have to say that I think that's BS. I seriously doubt a non-force sensistive character could perceive a Force based attack because they are like you and me and do not perceive such things. It's beyond their capabilities. |
I am actually agreeing with the above, on certain parts though. To disallow NFS's the ability to resist any force power would be way too overpowered imo.
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | Fehya wrote:
Your opinions?
I can see why Control can be allowed to resist it, but Perception?
It shouldn't be. Telekinesis should only be resistable by Force sensitive characters, and only through the use of their control skill, which would have to beat the telekinesis roll that it's going against.
Boomer wrote:
You have to recognize and sense how the hold is working, like fighting through an invisible maze.
When you are held with telekinesis, you are simply held. Strength avails nothing as you are not held by an opposing strength, but the same force that binds matter togethor in the first place. And someone else just said to physics "Make the matter right there hold still."
So you have to perceive and move out of this command, not brute through it.
Now, if you are talking about a Perception roll being able used as kind of a dodge against Telekinesis I can see where you are coming from, but I I have to say that I think that's BS. I seriously doubt a non-force sensistive character could perceive a Force based attack because they are like you and me and do not perceive such things. It's beyond their capabilities. |
I am actually agreeing with the above, on certain parts though. To disallow NFS's the ability to resist any force power would be way too overpowered imo. |
Well that's the way the Jedi are. Way overpowered compared to regular characters. That is as it should be.
Now, I can understand people wanting balanced game mechanics. However I don't do that. I balance the game in other ways. Though it is harder on me.
I challenge the Jedi much more than normal players. The stakes are higher for them, and the jobs more difficult. I balance the game through story and through trials. This in many cases does require splitting up my Jedi and Non-Jedi players, but typically I don't have that much of a split. I usually if at all have only one force user of any kind.
Now, in my games there is one way for NFS to resist Force attacks. Though it is incredibly hard and unlikely. Granted, you have to bear in mind here that my game rules are very different from yours and everyone else's. I have entirely different force rules that I have written myself.
Everyone has some level of force ability. The Jedi Academy Trilogy (Book 1) of which the title escapes me at the moment, defines luck in Star Wars as being sub-concious or unconcious use of the Force. Though this use of the Force is usually very limited and nothing like the Jedi.
I have skills in my game which non-Force sensitives can be taught that allow them to resist certain force skills. The Mind Trick is a good example of this.
As to telekinetic attacks, well lets just say that their chances are usually less than 15% to resist, but an option is left in for them. Another thing I have done is made ysalamiri a little easier to get a hold of. For no other reason than for providing NFS characters a means of evening the odds.
In fact in one game, the players went into an area with ysalamiri and made short work of a Dark Jedi because without the Force, the guy wasn't all that tough.
So your mileage may varry of course, but I just want to make the point that there are other non-game mechanical ways of balancing a game and that nerfing Jedi is not the only way. |
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Pel
Line Captain
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how a complete rules rewrite has bearing on official rules.
As previously mentioned, I think having Perception resist Force powers is perfectly reasonable, with perhaps some Willpower skill use thrown in to resist the mental aspects of the Force.
This gives the mundane players a chance, however slight, to resist the effects of the Force. More importantly, it gives the Force user a chance to fail, beyond meeting a predetermined difficulty number. Nothing is absolute.
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | I'm not sure how a complete rules rewrite has bearing on official rules.
As previously mentioned, I think having Perception resist Force powers is perfectly reasonable, with perhaps some Willpower skill use thrown in to resist the mental aspects of the Force.
This gives the mundane players a chance, however slight, to resist the effects of the Force. More importantly, it gives the Force user a chance to fail, beyond meeting a predetermined difficulty number. Nothing is absolute. |
It has no direct bearing on it. My disagreements with many of the rules leading to a rewrite is somewhat relavant here.
My point is that I don't agree with Telekinesis being resisted by perception or willpower. Physical force skills such as force choke shouldn't be resistable by perception or by willpower. No strong willed or even perceptive individual ever resisted Darth Vader or Palpatine's force abilities. In fact no one without Jedi training has ever been immune to Force choke. As to the mental aspects of the force such as mind tricks and the like, I am perfectly ok with that. The movies clearly established that srrong willed people are almost immune to those types of force skills. |
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DoubtBreak
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Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Firehawk0220 wrote: | | No strong willed or even perceptive individual ever resisted Darth Vader or Palpatine's force abilities. |
Hardly conclusive, since every set of game stats I've seen for Vader and Palpatine put their force skills higher than 10D. If a Force power uses Perception for a resistance roll, well, human maximum for that is 4D - most characters will have less. The only power I can find that mentions Willpower for resistance - if we're still talking official rules now - is Inflict Pain, and that's not a power we ever see Vader or Palpatine use in any case.
Incidentally, there are already powers such as Control Mind that only let Force-sensitive characters attempt a resistance roll of any kind. |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking about this a bit... Let's take Force Choke, for example.
After some serious consideration, I don't think I'd even allow Stamina to totally resist the effects. After all, the user isn't constricting the entire throat and neck, so the muscles are left out. The victim's Strength wouldn't even come into play. The Force user is actually squeezing the victim's trachea directly, so unless something stops the Force user before the victim dies, it's curtains, I tells ya, curtains! |
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Pel
Line Captain
Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 983
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | unless something stops the Force user before the victim dies, it's curtains, I tells ya, curtains! |
As seen in the popular holodrama, SithFellas. 
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Firehawk0220
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Dallas, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | I was thinking about this a bit... Let's take Force Choke, for example.
After some serious consideration, I don't think I'd even allow Stamina to totally resist the effects. After all, the user isn't constricting the entire throat and neck, so the muscles are left out. The victim's Strength wouldn't even come into play. The Force user is actually squeezing the victim's trachea directly, so unless something stops the Force user before the victim dies, it's curtains, I tells ya, curtains! |
Exactly. It realy depends on what is being done to the invidvidual with the force. That's what it really boils down to.
Like if a Dark Jedi used the Force to remove your intestional track from your anus, you could perhaps clench to hold them in, but you wouldn't stop the Dark Jedi from uncoiling them or doing things like that in the process. |
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darthomer09
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 1392
Location: Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Well. That was an oddly specific and slightly disturbing example... 
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