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Whill
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 Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | Speaking of DND history....
One of the most fun adventure series that I did for Star Wars - was converting some of the old DND modules (did some star frontiers as well...but that is another topic).
I took the old classic A1-A4 (which I have all the originals - dang...I am old) and adopted them for star wars.
I could get long winded on this (and have on many similar posts in the past in various boards forums and reddits) but basically - you can convert almost anything to almost anything. The story is the key - the concepts of encounters, and types of challenges for pcs. Yes, obviously some things may not have enough - but overall - it is not difficult- when you look at it less as a series of stats, and instead a series scenes in a story.
Here is a very high level version:
A1 - Secret of the slavers stockade.
Party travels to a planet just outside of hutt space, following a lead to Highpoint station on some slavers. The find that the slaver leader they are looking for, is using an old gammorean temple as a staging and storage ground for transporting slaves. Supposedly, the lower levels are accessible via the city sewers....
A2 - Secret of the Slavers Stockade
Tracking the slavers council to a compound where they have restored an old abandoned clone wars era separtist base ....
A3 - Assault on the Slave Lords...
On a lawless outer rim shadow port, the part attempts to infiltrate a settlement in alignment with the ruthless slave lords, as the base of a smouldering volcano...
A4 - In the dungeons of the slave lords
Captured and imprisoned by the slave lords, a party with no gear or supplies must survive and escape when an earthquake opens their cells to ancient lava tubes beneath a rumbling mountain.
It was a blast - and obviously, some encounters has to be modified (the basilisks had a paralyzing venom, not a magical gaze, the guy with the ring of resist fire, was instead wearing a special type of thermal field used by firefighting droids, etc.).
the party loved it - as it still had some of the classical dungeon crawl feel - and were intrigued by how things were adapted.
For me, it was cool dusting off those old DND modules I had not used since the 80s....
I had worked on an adventure using the Secret of Saltmarsh (one of my favorite dnd modules) but ...sadly, it has been too long - and I don't remember all the details. (I think the smugglers had a small mon-cal freighter, that came into a hidden grotto to bypass customs at the local star port, etc..). Hmmm....now I want to try and run that one again....hmmmmm |
B2 and A1-4 are the only adventures I can remember for sure playing in my first RPG campaign, but they are vague memories. It was over 40 years ago. I think I may later have owned A1-4 in high school (due to enjoying them in the old days) which strengthened the memory of playing them at the time, but I never ended up running them. That sounds like a cool adaptation to Star Wars!
I don't have any memory of the U-series modules.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:33 am Post subject: |
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I wonder, what stats someone would make up, if soemone converted the G series??
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pakman
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I wonder, what stats someone would make up, if soemone converted the G series?? |
For me, it would all depend on what aspect you wanted to capture.
I mean, it overall has two themes - explore/combat with tired levels of very dangerous humanoid critters -
Or the idea that power levels of leadership cascade through ranks of opponents.
One of the whole elements is facing foes that are NOT masses of goblins, stormtroopers, droids and hobgoblins - but instead - fewer numbers of more dangerous foes - wookies - defel, rancors etc.
Or is part of the theme the escalation to frost than fire giants?
Here is maybe one take;
Against the Beast Masters
Of the many vices in hutt space, one to arise in the last few decades was just more than gladiatorial combat between sentients, but also trained beasts - often of exotic nature and great ferocity. However, recently, this savage practice has begun to spread to more savage and lawless worlds in the outer rim.
The first one is on kashyyyk and the players have to figure out how the villians have managed to compel (spice, force, etc.) to willingly become gladiators - the they learn the next level overlord are on...
Next on on hoth or some other ice planet, where they have trained wampas...which leads to....
Malastare or Mustafar, where we have volcanoes and either cinderhounds, zillo creatures or something else being used as fighting monsters.
No, not quite the same - but depends on the theme - one is going for.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:04 am Post subject: |
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More, what would something akin to a hill, frost, fire giant (or the like) be statted out like? Base it on a rancor? Something else??
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | More, what would something akin to a hill, frost, fire giant (or the like) be statted out like? Base it on a rancor? Something else?? |
That is an interesting question - as you can see in my very brief and crude method above - was to not. I would find tough opponents that fit a natural setting (the hill giants), a cold setting (frost giants - in this case trained wampas) and fire setting (not a lot of options in my limited searching).
But to your question...
When I "adapt" adventures from other systems (even other star wars - like d20, etc.) I don't try to convert - I try to figure out what is the intended challenge level - and then try to either find something close, or just make something up.
To your specifics, if I wanted opponents that were descriptively similar to hill, frost and fire giants - I would -
1 - try to find something close of stature - again, wampas maybe for hill giants, or something similar. For the frost and fire - look at a rancor for the fire - then interpolate something in between for the frost (although, after checking wampas are way too small...but are their stats?).
2 - Decide if a scale modifier might work - for example - maybe a better fire giant, is a hill giant of speeder (or more) scale? Could a hill giant just be a scaled up herglic or scaled down wampa?
3 - Decide on rules for their "flavor". Give frost giants some sort of resistance to cold attacks (might not be relevant) - and fire giants some kind of resistance to fire - which might also translate into a limited energy weapon resistance (think zillo beast, cinderhound, etc.).
4 - I would then need to really think about how tough they are - star wars has an oddity in their wound system - while I REALLY love it more than hit point pools in d20 based systems (and a few others) it does suffer from the issue where critters with really high toughness (STR in star wars talk) - can be very difficult to hurt - even with blaster rifles etc. the player has to roll high on the same round the critter rolls low - and this sometimes, does not happen. That and wandering around with a lot of missiles and grenades I don't find to be a good option..... although that could be a fascinating situation unto itself....
Obviously, a hill giant (in traditional dnd) is bigger than a wampa - but again, what is my goal. if I start with rancor's as hill giants - the bigger ones get out of control - and players have no chance unless using massive weaponry.
(side note: I think the wampa stats a a bit much).
Now, if the GM and players want an adventure where they are hunting literally giant size critters with super powerful weapons - then that SHOULD be the goal. But if the gm is more interested in the story atmosphere of facing dangerous foes in their own lair, and finding out who is behind it ..... then that might be different. (you could have both - just with missiles). 
So, what would it be...
Hill Giant - big humanoid, some natural armor, uses mostly melee weapons, and some heavy weapons. (they would need to be smarter than most ones in traditional dnd).
DEX: 2D+1, Per: 3D, STR: 5D, KNO: 1D+1, MEC: 3D, Tech: 1D
Most weapon skills 5 or 6d, give them tough hide that gives +1D vs. physical attacks. Give them a good search - as I just think having them with a good sense of smell sounds .... reasonable.
Frost giants: Increase STR to 6D, bump up a few more stats - and add immune (or half damage) vs cold, and make sure they are in a cold environment.
I might make fire giants the same as frost, just make immunity fire, and increase their scale to speeder scale. (that effectively gives them +2D but makes them easier to hit).
I mean - honestly, I could easily see a fire giant being MUCH more in terms of stats - like MUCH MUCH more - but like I said, due to how damage works in star wars - it then turns into an arms race - since most small weapons have to effect (one of the downsides of the wound system).
Would the players have to cart around an e-web, or what would they do?
is that part of the adventure itself? dealing with really big and tough foes in enclosed spaces (missing with a missile launcher might be ...dangerous).
Interesting thought exercise
I appreciate the ask - as not only about adapting DND adventures and the "spirit" of them - and how they translating - but the thoughts on scale and combat.
I think, make adaptions for called shots might be a good answer (trying to hit a giant in a vital area, etc.). have to think more....
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | To your specifics, if I wanted opponents that were descriptively similar to hill, frost and fire giants - I would -
1 - try to find something close of stature - again, wampas maybe for hill giants, or something similar. For the frost and fire - look at a rancor for the fire - then interpolate something in between for the frost (although, after checking wampas are way too small...but are their stats?).
2 - Decide if a scale modifier might work - for example - maybe a better fire giant, is a hill giant of speeder (or more) scale? Could a hill giant just be a scaled up herglic or scaled down wampa?
3 - Decide on rules for their "flavor". Give frost giants some sort of resistance to cold attacks (might not be relevant) - and fire giants some kind of resistance to fire - which might also translate into a limited energy weapon resistance (think zillo beast, cinderhound, etc.).
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Wampa's are decent foes, but are not that big. IIRC the one who fought Luke, was barely 2ft taller..
On the flavor, i agree fire resistance MAY have an effect on blasters. Frost resistance, i can't see doing much, as few weapons or effects, even do anything for cold.. Heck i even asked about such weapons many years back (liquid nitrogen grenades etc)...
| pakman wrote: | 4 - I would then need to really think about how tough they are - star wars has an oddity in their wound system - while I REALLY love it more than hit point pools in d20 based systems (and a few others) it does suffer from the issue where critters with really high toughness (STR in star wars talk) - can be very difficult to hurt - even with blaster rifles etc. the player has to roll high on the same round the critter rolls low - and this sometimes, does not happen. That and wandering around with a lot of missiles and grenades I don't find to be a good option..... although that could be a fascinating situation unto itself....
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Maybe rather than a high str, have them with MORE wound levels. Say 2-3 more 'wound levels', before incap... That's really the only thing i can think of..
| pakman wrote: | I mean - honestly, I could easily see a fire giant being MUCH more in terms of stats - like MUCH MUCH more - but like I said, due to how damage works in star wars - it then turns into an arms race - since most small weapons have to effect (one of the downsides of the wound system).
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That's one thing SW imp never really did well.. Having monster like foes, that are MORE than just a block of stats.
| pakman wrote: | Would the players have to cart around an e-web, or what would they do?
is that part of the adventure itself? dealing with really big and tough foes in enclosed spaces (missing with a missile launcher might be ...dangerous).
Interesting thought exercise
I appreciate the ask - as not only about adapting DND adventures and the "spirit" of them - and how they translating - but the thoughts on scale and combat.
I think, make adaptions for called shots might be a good answer (trying to hit a giant in a vital area, etc.). have to think more....
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For some already existing critters, they may just have to cart around an e-web.. BUT that's the problem imo with WEG's Str rating. TO show how deadly' a beast is, you have to give it a high str, but that then also makes it rather Tough to damage...
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pakman
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Keeping in theme with history with DND....
I do love fantasy RPGs, and have played many over the years. One of the things I have always had a dislike of - is how big hit point pools in games like DND (and others) means that until a character gets really whittled down - single attacks have almost no threat level.
one of the things I DO love about d6 - is the wound system - even experienced characters can be threatened by a thug who is covering them with a blaster (high dodge non-withstanding).
however, as pointed out by garhkal...
| Quote: | | That's one thing SW imp never really did well.. Having monster like foes, that are MORE than just a block of stats. |
I do agree. now, in my house rules I HAVE changed the Strength Stat - it is now "Physique" as taken from later D6 systems (d6 adventure, d6 fantasy, and other derivations). it is effectively the same ...
| Code: | | Physique: Measure of physical power and ability to resist damage. A combination of toughness, endurance and strength and the overall metric of health and physical prowess |
That and I have changed the lifting skill, to Strength.
This allows for me to have opponents who can be physically strong - like a wookie - but not be immune to blaster fire.
Also, one of the ideas I have been thinking about ....is very close to this...
| Quote: | | garhkal: Maybe rather than a high str, have them with MORE wound levels. Say 2-3 more 'wound levels', before incap... That's really the only thing i can think of.. |
I have been considering giving more wounds to bigger creatures - maybe their physique die code being how many wounds they can take before being automatically incapacitated. This would make it possible to "whittle" them down, like a hit point system (increasing penalties as becoming more an more wounded) but preserve that one shot still a threat of wounds systems.
I am strongly considering this - as in my house rules review of the ENTIRE 2.5 system, I have yet to finish my work on creatures - but I am going to play with this notion some more.... (why I love the pit - tons of ideas).
Against the Giants DND Module...
I would maybe just keep the Strength lower for the giants, but increase their wounds - giving them a good damage bonus in melee - so they are still a threat, but don't require extreme luck or an e-web to take out.
If I remember, the modules were overall a bit simplistic - but hey, we had different standards back in the day....
On DND history.
I do think I am going to review more of my dnd modules however, as some DID have cool stories - and well, as most of my group is older guys who also played DND back in the day - it might be fun for me to look at others which might have great stories, or some encounters or what ever - that could be fun to convert to a star wars example....
I think there was a couple of "lost city" or civilization modules that might be fun to convert to a primitive planet or something in star wars.... hmmmm...
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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I thought this might be a very important thought process:
RE Giants
Give a Giant normal relative stats and then give it Scale Dice (which add to Strength and resistances but on a differing scale than stacking on STR dice. For example, at Speeder scale, that's +2D, Walker Scale, +4D. With a humanoid "Giant" having an average strength of 2D to 4D, this becomes 4D to 8D. While yes, it is still going to be very hard to hurt an 8D resistance, something this large and powerful should be harder to hurt.
One thing I had done in my D6 space games and rules testing was a wound system that allowed a character to withstand 1 wound for every Die Code of Strength before becoming incapacitated. Wound penalties were still -1D per wound suffered, and were still cumulative. I also allowed for increased Incapacitate levels for every full 2D in Strength before becoming mortally wounded. I had done this for a number of reasons, which would take too long to detail, and I hesitate to try without access to the notes. It worked very well, and the player groups were very pleased (there were still fatalities). Perhaps using this as a special ability for a creature calling it Hardy or Sturdy could allow for the effect you wish.
As for resistances, I would suggest assigning it a Die Code of armor value against only that type of attack. Also, as I recall, Frost and Fire giants inflict frost and fire damage in addition to base attacks, especially in close combat (at least pretty sure this was true in 2nd edition), so giving these types of foes such powers would not be unreasonable. If by luck you have access to Godsend Agenda or the Powers book, that could be really handy to build custom aliens and creatures.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Now that "making 1 wound before incap" per d of str is an interesting HR..
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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In the SWU, there's always the giants that the Ewoks had to deal with in at least one children's book and one kids movie.
As for the Strength conundrum, WEG already provides an example. The rancor has two STR numbers given. One is used for STR tests, the other for damage purposes. Just give your giants a different STR for damage. |
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pakman
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | I thought this might be a very important thought process:
RE Giants
Give a Giant normal relative stats and then give it Scale Dice (which add to Strength and resistances but on a differing scale than stacking on STR dice. For example, at Speeder scale, that's +2D, Walker Scale, +4D. With a humanoid "Giant" having an average strength of 2D to 4D, this becomes 4D to 8D. While yes, it is still going to be very hard to hurt an 8D resistance, something this large and powerful should be harder to hurt.
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This was part of my thought process as well - just using scale.
(my example of maybe making frost and fire the same, but with a scale difference).
| KageRyu wrote: |
One thing I had done in my D6 space games and rules testing was a wound system that allowed a character to withstand 1 wound for every Die Code of Strength before becoming incapacitated. Wound penalties were still -1D per wound suffered, and were still cumulative.
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I am strongly leaning this way - thanks for sharing!!!!
| KageRyu wrote: |
I also allowed for increased Incapacitate levels for every full 2D in Strength before becoming mortally wounded. I had done this for a number of reasons, which would take too long to detail, and I hesitate to try without access to the notes. It worked very well, and the player groups were very pleased (there were still fatalities).
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Interseting. Have to consider that as well. I use "Serious wound" and "critical wound" myself. - that way all damage is consistent.
(for ships, vehicles, equipment damage levels are - light, serious, critical)
| KageRyu wrote: |
Perhaps using this as a special ability for a creature calling it Hardy or Sturdy could allow for the effect you wish.
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Like the idea - I do use keywords for abilities and such (consistent referencing etc.) - for example, some creatures and big droids are "stable" so they resist being thrown around by martial arts moves etc. (not just scale factor - but like in having more legs - like a crab droid).
thanks for your comments.
DND side note - one of my favorite modules from back in the day, was I1 - Dwellers of the Forbidden City. (have to check it out - see how useful it is).
I am thinking about maybe using some parts of it for a future star wars adventure - have one story point that needs a more jungle like area - so that might a good one to think about.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Star Wars D6 Damage addresses some of the concerns here.
For high strength-based damage from characters and creatures, there is Strength Damage concept that I refined from D6 Space. It is based on the lifting skill. In my system, I kept the Strength attribute name but changed the lifting skill name to lifting/exertion and define it as: "Lifting" plus pushing, pulling, and exerting physical force in ways not covered by other Strength skills; a factor in Strength Damage.
As far as the number of wound levels, I base on importance of the character. I predicted the R&E addition of "wounded twice" by house ruling that stating back in my 1e days, but I made it only apply to PCs and important NPCs. If a mook or animal is wounded again when already wounded, they go straight to incapacitated as they do in 1e and Blue Vader RAW. My mathematical instinct gives me a knee jerk reaction to the idea of adding wound level based on Strength. High Strength characters and creatures already have a better chance of being less effected by damage baked into every single damage roll against them. Adding additional damage levels based on Strength seems like it would exponentiate the resistance. It could also make low Strength characters too easy to kill.
I agree that creatures should be an appropriate scale based on their size and mass.
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pakman
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | My mathematical instinct gives me a knee jerk reaction to the idea of adding wound level based on Strength. High Strength characters and creatures already have a better chance of being less effected by damage baked into every single damage roll against them. Adding additional damage levels based on Strength seems like it would exponentiate the resistance. It could also make low Strength characters too easy to kill. |
Valid point, but lets better define the situation;
Let us state (at least from my perspective) the issue;
Potential issue
It is difficult to model larger creatures in the game, which are difficult to take down, but can be done so without resorting to heavy weaponry.
In my opinion - once you get a target (droid, creature or otherwise) that is 6D or higher - characters dealing normal damage (say high end, 5D) - it can be incredibly frustrating to play - as to do anything you have to get lucky and have the characters roll high on the same turn as the critter rolls low.
This is almost like the "blaster soak" problem, but on steroids.
For me, the idea of more wounds might be that the bigger creatures have a more normal strength (5D or so) but more wounds - that way the characters have more of a chance to wound them - but they still last longer - so the characters get some "incremental " sense of accomplishment.
(one of the very few minor benefits of a hit point pool system - the slow progress against really tough foes).
Before we dig too deeply into potential solutions .....
But is this really an issue?
Now, a lot of other perspectives might come into play here;
1 - Characters should learn to be better prepared - possibly true.
2 - Players need to learn when their characters should run.
3 - Used command to add bonus to damage
4 - players used called shots to try and target more vulnerable areas.
Is this really a problem? Or is the occasional situation where there party does not have access to more powerful weapons make it seem more of an issue?
maybe this is worthy of it's own thread?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
As far as the number of wound levels, I base on importance of the character. I predicted the R&E addition of "wounded twice" by house ruling that stating back in my 1e days, but I made it only apply to PCs and important NPCs. If a mook or animal is wounded again when already wounded, they go straight to incapacitated as they do in 1e and Blue Vader RAW. |
This was also in use in the D6 game in question.
| Quote: | | My mathematical instinct gives me a knee jerk reaction to the idea of adding wound level based on Strength. High Strength characters and creatures already have a better chance of being less effected by damage baked into every single damage roll against them. Adding additional damage levels based on Strength seems like it would exponentiate the resistance. It could also make low Strength characters too easy to kill. |
I get this idea is not for everyone. As I said there were a lot of reasons and a lot more to the rule. Part of it was to allow the party more opportunity to see they may be outmatched and withdraw, and give the "Tanky" characters a chance to help save their bacon. This was going to be included in a chapter of the D6 edition I had been working on under OGL I was tentatively calling "Reality Scaling". Everything in that chapter was going to be optional rules to adjust the cinematic or grittiness of your game up or down. It include reverting the success method to the style in 1st edition (multiple of difficulty or damage resistance roll), the wound levels, critical successes adding to damage (every multiple over base target number to hit adding 1D damage), and a limiting actions or multi-shots (I realistic limit how many extra shots a character can take to 1 per full die code of Dexterity unless they have some special ability or a force/fate point is in use). To do it justice I would need to find the notes and post the full details I was merely presenting a fast and dirty abridged description as an idea to make creatures more resilient while not making their resistance die code impossibly high.
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pakman
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:33 am Post subject: |
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DND in D6....
Found this pic - from a long time ago - about 2002 or so, my buddies and I playing D6 on the living room floor.
This was my adaption of the old dnd module
A2-SECRET OF THE SLAVERS STOCKADE
This was a large outdoor map of the area surrounding the complex.
I had made it an old separatist base, damaged during the clone wars. The slavers had repaired it bit - and were using it a staging and sorting hub for other slaving outposts (like the one in the previous module - a1).
We used micro machine minis - for this large outdoor map - and there were several shuttles and transports (and a few fighters) - parked outside the base. There was also a ravine not too far - away, which connected to the underground areas of the complex - offering another way in.
This module took a lot of work to make usable - and not just because of trying to capture the spirit of the dnd encounters - but honestly, because it is just pretty bad - a lot of the layout and encounters made no sense, etc. I did manage to make it work - and we had enough fun to do the next one....
I had loved playing this thing DND back in high school years earlier - but as well all know nostalgia gives everything a different light (there is a big difference between "we had a ton of fun playing back in the day" and "those were well written and thought out adventures and rules!").
Anyway, the party did well, and had a ton of fun - in the end forcing the slavers to flee - and freeing all the slaves. I used the "Arkanian Dawn" from GG9 as one of the smugglers the party used to transport the slaves off before the slave lords could send reinforcements.
Wish I still had some of the adventure logs from this time...I *think* the party decided to pose as slavers and come in the front door...
And back to now...
I found my DND adventure Dwellers in the Forbidden City, so going to maybe use it for a jungle planet where the characters are likely to go in our current campaign...
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SW Fan, Gamer, Comic, Corporate nerd.
Working on massive House Rules document - pretty much a new book. Will post soon.... |
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