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Mamatried
Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 1861
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Allowing both movement and your 1st action in the turn imo solves several of these things.
As to the vehicel moving out of cover to shoot then back into cover, I would solve very simply by allowing the vehicle a shot as the action, it is not given
benefit of cover. At the end of everyone's intitative phase the vehicle moves back into cover.
The vehicle can also decide to decide to make the movemnt first, have no cover, and only at the end of everyone's initiative will the vehicle be allowed to
shoot.
I can allow 1/2 standard movement then shot/action and then 1/2 standard movement as a narrative, but mechanically the player chooses the if the movement is first or last in the initiative, if he chooses to go fist, his action will come after everybody else's with any penalties applied.
If he chooses to shoot first he does so normally, but cover is negated, and then after everyone has acted he "ends his move" |
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Dr. Bidlo
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I agree with your thoughts about the sequence - which is why I have the movement to occurring during the actions at a distance no more than the character or vehicle's move during each "action" but the move itself occurs during all other declared actions. |
How do you handle, say, a character/vehicle that starts and ends its Move behind cover, but is exposed to enemy fire during the Move? Do the enemy get a chance to shoot at them during the Move phase of the round? |
The character chooses where they end there move during their action. Then during the next character's turn they shoot at the first character based on their current distance and suffering from any cover penalties based on current positions as normal.
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | A half move is free. |
But that's the thing; it's a "Cautious" Move. As in, moving that Speed, you can only cover five meters in a five second round. It's a walking pace, not a sprint of a few meters to get across an open space while stormtroopers are shooting at you. |
YOU said it yourself. "COVERING a few meters to get across an open space".
OR are you more thinking of them covering 15-30 meters, as a 'few meters'??
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | I agree with your thoughts about the sequence - which is why I have the movement to occurring during the actions at a distance no more than the character or vehicle's move during each "action" but the move itself occurs during all other declared actions. |
How do you handle, say, a character/vehicle that starts and ends its Move behind cover, but is exposed to enemy fire during the Move? Do the enemy get a chance to shoot at them during the Move phase of the round? |
The enemy shoots based of the current position, so if the characters get behind cover or even completely out of range before the enemy action, they get the benefit of the cover. However, this is not much different than moving the full move as one action other than restricting characters to a reasonable distance.
You could implement some sort of an Overwatch rule (to borrow a non-Star Wars term from an older version of Warhammer 40k) I suppose, but the same theoretical concern comes up with what I proposed for movement just the same for the RAW.
Last edited by Dr. Bidlo on Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Per the forum guidelines, please do not discuss house rules to RAW until you've got RAW down.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | IMO, the evidence strongly indicates that a Move action as portrayed in the RAW takes up an entire round, and is more an indicator of pace. Note, for example, the Acceleration/Deceleration rules on pg. 102 of 2R&E: a character moving All-Out in one round, must make a minimum Cruising Move in the following round. Thus, since the Move takes up the entire round... |
In RAW, characters only being able to change their speed by up to two levels per round (R&E p.102) is not indicative that movement takes place over the course of the entire round. It is indicative that there is only one movement action possible per round...
| On R&E p.101, Bill Smith wrote: | Moving is an action, just like firing a blaster or dodging an attack. A character can move once per round...
Movement works just like other actions...
While your character can only move once per round, you can pick one of four speeds. |
| On R&E p.106, Bill Smith wrote: | Vehicle movement works in much the same way as character movement...
Moving is an action, just like firing a blaster or dodging. A vehicle can move once per round...
While a vehicle can only move once per round, the driver can pick one of four speeds. |
| On R&E p.123, Bill Smith wrote: | Starship movement works just like vehicle movement...
Moving is an action, just like firing a blaster or dodging. A ship can move once per round... |
Thus, in RAW, all movement takes place within a single action, and only one movement action per character, vehicle, or starship can occur per round. This is explicit. It is not something vague that has multiple debatable interpretations (like a couple other things in RAW).
Yes, it's wacky. Blue Vader movement was also wacky but it seemed less wacky by being more incremental.
R&E movement is an evolution from Blue Vader movement, where each "move" was also a single action, but each move action moved a distance of the character/vehicle/starship's Move stat, and you were not limited to only one move action per round. You could move anywhere from a half-move to four moves per round. Each "move" was a separate action, which meant you rolled vs a terrain difficulty for each move action, and you were MAPped for each move action.
R&E tweaking this by condensing all movement in a round to a single action with various speeds that determined the difficulty (modified by terrain) traded the multiple die rolls and MAPs for the relatively greater unrealism of the entirety of a round's movement happening in-between other actions. But R&E movement speeds did recreate the same total range of movement in a round: half-move ("cautious") through four moves ("all-out").
I breathed a sigh of relief when R&E came out and eliminated the excessive dice rolling and MAPs for movement. It wasn't until much later where the solution to Blue Vader movement started bothering me in different ways than the original problem.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I ask because I'm thinking in terms of exactly how much of a round a Move action takes up. |
In RAW, as shown by the R&E quotes above, it takes up a single action of a round. Bidlo and I were talking about house rules where single-roll movement can be spread out over the course of the round, so that other non-movement actions can happen during movement.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As an aside, it occurs to me that some sort of "Dash" action (i.e. sprinting short distances, like from one piece of Cover to another, without using the entire round to do so) could potentially exist parallel to the RAW Movement rules. |
As shown above, to an extent that already is a part of both R&E and Blue Vader. But it is part of the problem with all 2e RAW that since all movement actions take place in-between other actions, you technically can't be shot at while moving. Game mechanically, all movement is start and stop every round. It's counter-intuitive, but it is RAW. In the mind's eye, movement is more fluid, but this is the way they break it down in the rules for the sake of non-movement actions occurring in the round.
My house rule solution eliminates this issue, since movement is more organic and other stuff happens during single-roll movements. Based on the character or vehicle's speed, I decide approximately where they are along their intended path for the round when something external happens to it that might affect it, like being shot at. So in my game you are in danger of being shot while moving, just like in the movies and real life.
In RAW, reaction skill rolls already apply to all attacks of that type in the entire round. Consider that the house rule concept of dodging including an element of movement means that movement can occur as a reaction. In my game, you can quickly move up to the distance covered by "cautious" movement in a round you are dodging. So that can represent moving from cover to cover, and it does not necessarily mean that you are slowly walking.
If a character is already moving and gets shot at they can still decide on a reaction skill roll, and that just happens along the way of the original movement.
| Quote: | | any Skill roll associated with said Move should arguably be made first... |
You can house rule it to work that way. Just be clear that RAW very explicitly does not work that way when discussing how you feel movement should work.
| Quote: | | Say, for instance, that the character declares two actions: run out from behind cover across a corridor to a connecting hallway, and fire a blaster shot at the stormtroopers down the hall while running. Chronologically, the Move action has to occur first. |
Yes, this character wanting to do this would have to start moving before he could shoot. In my house rules, the movement would have be declared first, but unlike non-movement actions, the movement does not necessarily completely occur first. Movement just starts happening first, and then the character shoots down the hall at the stormtrooper. In my game, movement actions can be declared on any turn of the character with the non-action movement of that turn. So if the character who starts running could get into the position to shoot very quickly after the start to the movement, then I may allow them to start moving and shoot down the hall on the same turn, and then the rest of the movement would continuously occur during other actions, and if the stormtrooper wants to shoot back at the character I will determine where the character is in their movement when that happens.
But movement wouldn't always have to happen first. What if you want to shoot from behind the cover first and then move? The shot is clearly the first action in the round, and then the rest of the round the character is moving. Since movements by default are full round actions and this character would not be moving the full round, my player will tell me where he wants to end up so we can determine distance, and then the highest number of actions declared that round determines the fractional time increments of that round so I can see how much time is left in the round and then figure what speed the movement will have to be to reach that intended end location. This means that players may not roll their movement roll until everyone has declared and completed (or started) their first action for the round.
So movement is like a "concurrent" action, except that it can be concurrent to multiple actions of both the character moving and other character actions that round. MAPs and dice rolls occur like in R&E RAW, this preserving the elimination of the Blue Vader movement problem.
| Quote: | | Some expansion of accel/decel rules might be in order, too, so that characters can have options, such as using Preparation to gain an extra Acceleration step, or using a Sliding Maneuver to come to a complete stop at the end of an All-Out Move. |
Those are interesting house rule ideas. I've never been too thrilled about the limitations of RAW acceleration and deceleration. I've thought that some vehicles could have it in their stats to have better or worse than standard capability to change speed, in one or both directions.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'm well aware of how the RAW works. My premise is that, while a Move counts as a single Action for MAP purposes, it still takes the entire round (5 seconds) to perform it. In fact, I'd argue that, if making a Move from one piece of Cover to another, the character wouldn't be able to take advantage of said Cover until the beginning of the next round, on account of being exposed to enemy fire while making whatever the Move action is. That would nicely satisfy a lot of my complaints about Movement in combat. There would still be room for Dash actions / Move Segments, but that would be better suited to a separate post in the House Rule section (especially since, the more I think about it, such a rule would almost certainly incorporate my concept for Dodge as an Advanced Skill, as well as Velocity Modifiers).
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm well aware of how the RAW works. My premise is that... |
Well aware? Your own words indicate otherwise.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | the evidence strongly indicates that... |
House rules do not need any "evidence" since they are conscious choices to veer from RAW. The above phrase indicated an interpretation of RAW was coming...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...a Move action as portrayed in the RAW takes up an entire round, and is more an indicator of pace. Note, for example, the Acceleration/Deceleration rules on pg. 102 of 2R&E: a character moving All-Out in one round, must make a minimum Cruising Move in the following round. |
Your words clearly indicated you are talking about RAW, not how you feel it should work (house rules). The R&E p.102 quote about deceleration is indicative of there only being one move action per round, not that movement takes the entire round. And the overall "pace" works out the same in RAW or in my tweak.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Thus, since the Move takes up the entire round |
This is a conclusionary statement for an argument of a position. Your stated position was that movement in RAW takes the entire round. The evidence on R&E p. 101, 106, and 123 explicitly indicate that movement in RAW does not takes the entire round. It takes a single action.
These kind of discussions here can devolve into chaos if we aren't interpreting RAW correctly in the first place, which is why there are multiple statements in the forum guidelines about it. You must be clear on official rules before discussing house rules.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My premise is that |
Now this sounds like a house rule is coming.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My premise is that, while a Move counts as a single Action for MAP purposes, it still takes the entire round (5 seconds) to perform it. |
Actually, that is the premise of my house rules, but not RAW. So at least we seem to be somewhat in agreement for the way it should work.
Now in my system you can also start after your first action in the round, but if so then you can no longer move the full distance allowed by your chosen speed since you aren't moving for the entire time frame of a round. The reduced distance is prorated based on the time left in the round when you start it. Because the premise of my concurrent movement is based on the RAW speeds taking the full round to cover the RAW distances.
My house movement system is not just speculation. I have used this in practice for years, and it works for me. I admit it is not practical for everyone.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | In fact, I'd argue that... |
There is no need to "argue" house rules because they are opinion based. From the rest of your wording it seems like you just mean that you feel it should work a certain way.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | if making a Move from one piece of Cover to another, the character wouldn't be able to take advantage of said Cover until the beginning of the next round, on account of being exposed to enemy fire while making whatever the Move action is. |
That is the way it works out in my game sometimes. The character advances a bit more for every action that happens during their movement, and enemy actions along the way could certainly be firing at the moving character. Whether they make it not that same round depends on the distance and speed.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That would nicely satisfy a lot of my complaints about Movement in combat. There would still be room for Dash actions / Move Segments, but that would be better suited to a separate post in the House Rule section (especially since, the more I think about it, such a rule would almost certainly incorporate my concept for Dodge as an Advanced Skill, as well as Velocity Modifiers). |
Yes, please feel free to create a house rules thread for your movement. And your combat round when you get a chance. Just please don't misrepresent RAW along the way.
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Dr. Bidlo
Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2021
Posts: 440
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm well aware of how the RAW works. My premise is that, while a Move counts as a single Action for MAP purposes, it still takes the entire round (5 seconds) to perform it. In fact, I'd argue that, if making a Move from one piece of Cover to another, the character wouldn't be able to take advantage of said Cover until the beginning of the next round, on account of being exposed to enemy fire while making whatever the Move action is. That would nicely satisfy a lot of my complaints about Movement in combat. There would still be room for Dash actions / Move Segments, but that would be better suited to a separate post in the House Rule section (especially since, the more I think about it, such a rule would almost certainly incorporate my concept for Dodge as an Advanced Skill, as well as Velocity Modifiers). |
Yeah this thread blends official rules with house rules, so it is hard to compartmentalize. However, since we have established the RAW regarding movement in combat and some of us may be seeking a house rule, I will start a new thread under House Rules. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | That would nicely satisfy a lot of my complaints about Movement in combat. There would still be room for Dash actions / Move Segments, but that would be better suited to a separate post in the House Rule section |
House Rules: Breaking Up Move Actions
| Dr. Bidlo wrote: | | Yeah this thread blends official rules with house rules, so it is hard to compartmentalize. However, since we have established the RAW regarding movement in combat and some of us may be seeking a house rule, I will start a new thread under House Rules. |
It is quite normal for discussions about Official Rules and House Rules to be intertwined with each other. Part of House Ruling involves deciding that Official Rules can be improved upon. In a forum full of tinkerers, it is humorous to observe how quickly house rules are brought up in threads with purely official rules questions or comments OPs. (I think the average is very close to the first reply.)
I've realized more and more in recent years that long time devotees of this game often have misunderstandings of the game system. There are a combination of factors for this phenomena. Sometimes it has been a long time since they have played the game so the practical experience element is distant. Sometimes they have been playing with house rules for so long they have forgotten they are house rules and falsely believe they are RAW. Sometimes there is confusion between editions/sub-editions. To name a few.
It is impossible to completely separate RAW and house rules discussions, and unfortunately, there is always an opening for confusions and rules arguments to come up on the forum. It has lead to a few forum guideline updates being required:
• Everywhere on this site (except for the First Edition/IAG forum), R&E is the default RAW
• When referring to RAW please use the official game terminology, even if your house rules change the terms
• Do not attempt to pass off anyone's house rules as RAW
• Do not attempt to pass off your personal canon as official canon
• If you wish to discuss or propose modifications to official rules, please review and try to understand the official rules you are modifying first I guess I need to add another one: It is ok to admit to having been incorrect.
I will immodestly say I am an above average expert at understanding this game system, but I am not an egomaniac. If someone accuses me of being incorrect about RAW, I don't just get defensive and double down and argue. I stop, and go read the rulebook. In my experience, I usually confirm my understanding and come back with citations. But I am man enough to publicly admit when I am wrong, even when it is over a year later and no one ever called me out on it.
I'm sorry, but I have a responsibility to this community to not allow errors in portraying RAW go uncontested/uncorrected here. Even more important than servicing the thousands of lurkers reading it, it is key to moderating the forum and minimizing blowups in rules discussions. Know RAW, and if you don't, then learn RAW. Then discuss house ruling RAW if you want.
If anyone realizes that they had misunderstood RAW, just acknowledge it and we can all move on. If you can't bring yourself to admit it, then at least stop arguing about it. Whatever you do, attempting to Jedi Mind Trick us that you had always understood RAW will never work or be acceptable.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Jun 20, 2024 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Just read over the three pages of this thread and (though fascinating) it didn't cover our issue that came up last night.
The question was about Jet Pack Operation and the movement with it. As part of the half-move (basically "free", not requiring an action), can a person get half of the distance they could travel using the Jet Pack (effectively Cautious Movement with it)?
At first blush, it looks like they can. Under the Skill listings, for Jetpack Operation it says "one round", but then it says that for just about every Skill.
But it also seemed weird that - for free - our gigantic Barabel could fly to the top of a 10 meter high building and then use his action to swing his massive sword at the enemy.
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KageRyu
Commodore
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | Just read over the three pages of this thread and (though fascinating) it didn't cover our issue that came up last night.
The question was about Jet Pack Operation and the movement with it. As part of the half-move (basically "free", not requiring an action), can a person get half of the distance they could travel using the Jet Pack (effectively Cautious Movement with it)?
At first blush, it looks like they can. Under the Skill listings, for Jetpack Operation it says "one round", but then it says that for just about every Skill.
But it also seemed weird that - for free - our gigantic Barabel could fly to the top of a 10 meter high building and then use his action to swing his massive sword at the enemy. |
I would say using a jetpack to cover any distance is not a free move as a jetpack requires very specialized training and piloting skills from what has been shown. That's my thoughts on it.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | Just read over the three pages of this thread and (though fascinating) it didn't cover our issue that came up last night.
The question was about Jet Pack Operation and the movement with it. As part of the half-move (basically "free", not requiring an action), can a person get half of the distance they could travel using the Jet Pack (effectively Cautious Movement with it)?
At first blush, it looks like they can. Under the Skill listings, for Jetpack Operation it says "one round", but then it says that for just about every Skill.
But it also seemed weird that - for free - our gigantic Barabel could fly to the top of a 10 meter high building and then use his action to swing his massive sword at the enemy. |
I would say using a jetpack to cover any distance is not a free move as a jetpack requires very specialized training and piloting skills from what has been shown. That's my thoughts on it. |
That was kinda my thought on it as well.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | Just read over the three pages of this thread and (though fascinating) it didn't cover our issue that came up last night.
The question was about Jet Pack Operation and the movement with it. As part of the half-move (basically "free", not requiring an action), can a person get half of the distance they could travel using the Jet Pack (effectively Cautious Movement with it)?
At first blush, it looks like they can. Under the Skill listings, for Jetpack Operation it says "one round", but then it says that for just about every Skill.
But it also seemed weird that - for free - our gigantic Barabel could fly to the top of a 10 meter high building and then use his action to swing his massive sword at the enemy. |
I would say using a jetpack to cover any distance is not a free move as a jetpack requires very specialized training and piloting skills from what has been shown. That's my thoughts on it. |
Agreed. You can still jump with it, only 1/2 the distance (or even less if you wanted), but i wouldn't see it as a "Free move"..
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fogger1138
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Feb 2021
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Actions during movement |
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| Whill wrote: | | If it helps, I tell my players to think of movement more in terms of distance. How much distance do you want to cover this round? Then the distance determines the speed required to get there, and the required speed determines free or MAP-counting action and difficulty of the MAP-counting action. |
I've never loved the way R&E handled movement because it wasn't particularly intuitive to me (although better than Blue Vader), but this actually helped a lot in figuring out how to deal with it. |
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