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jtanzer
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 01 Mar 2023
Posts: 119
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | Well, if you have a concept house rule for a better system, feel free to post it. Until then, I’ll keep trying to come up with some sort of justification as to the system we already have. |
Out of curiosity, what do we need justification for?
I think the current system IS justified - at least from my perspective.
(again, I disagree with the premise that 100% of the galaxy is accurately mapped, and therefore hyperjumps should be easily made from anywhere to anywhere).
if there is a gap, in your perspective CRM, I would like to understand - I am sure we can come up with something... |
I agree. Why this obsession with house ruling everything? From my perspective it looks as if you're trying to create a new game system, without creating a new system.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: |
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My position has been stated in some detail earlier in this topic, but to summarize, I think that the “off-route” space on the hyperdrive route map is littered with obstacles that impede the proliferation of new routes. In the past, the route map has been compared to an interstate highway map, which makes a lot of sense, save that the routes are data-based, not paved roads, and are maintained by BoSS Flight Recorder Data->Navcomputer Update Loop I’ve proposed elsewhere, with heavily traveled routes being in the best condition, while lesser routes fall into varying degrees of “disrepair” due to data neglect. However, something to bear in mind is that the shape of the interstate map is largely dictated by geography, in that the meandering of a road (as opposed to a straight line) is almost always because the road has to be routed around some terrain feature like a mountain range, or because the easiest route with the gentlest grades runs down a river valley or some such. However, since there is no “geography” in space, my premise is that there are other obstacles, mainly affecting hyperspace only, that have forced the map to settle on its current form.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16326
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| jtanzer wrote: | | Why this obsession with house ruling everything? From my perspective it looks as if you're trying to create a new game system, without creating a new system. |
I’m long past the point where I feel the need to justify my interests to anyone else. If you don’t like my house rules or concepts, don’t use them.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | My position has been stated in some detail earlier in this topic, but to summarize, I think that the “off-route” space on the hyperdrive route map is littered with obstacles that impede the proliferation of new routes. In the past, the route map has been compared to an interstate highway map, which makes a lot of sense, save that the routes are data-based, not paved roads, and are maintained by BoSS Flight Recorder Data->Navcomputer Update Loop I’ve proposed elsewhere, with heavily traveled routes being in the best condition, while lesser routes fall into varying degrees of “disrepair” due to data neglect. |
This verbatum matches my perception
- with the only addendum of lesser routes not just being data neglect - but just not as many reliable data readings, compared to heavier travelled routes.
So overall - agree with only minor variations.
Now, if I could figure out how much fuel hyper space jumps cost.....but as they say, that is a differnt topic...
| CRMcNeill wrote: |
However, something to bear in mind is that the shape of the interstate map is largely dictated by geography, in that the meandering of a road (as opposed to a straight line) is almost always because the road has to be routed around some terrain feature like a mountain range, or because the easiest route with the gentlest grades runs down a river valley or some such. However, since there is no “geography” in space, my premise is that there are other obstacles, mainly affecting hyperspace only, that have forced the map to settle on its current form. |
I agree with this analogy - with only one caveat - I think we don't need as many hyperspace obstacles - due to the speeds involved and difficlt to chart objects (brown dwarfs, rogue planets, etc.).
But I think some hyperspace ananomolies are fine - could even call them gravity currents or some kind of dark energy (we do not eactly understand the mechanism that holds super clusters together for example).
Do we need rules on all of these? that is up to each gm - to me, just the explanation is adequate - although a gravity wave is a fun idea on that it could make a ship go faster - a tailwind so to speak.
But as far as just popping out new routes as needed without scouting - I feel that and all the spaces between the routes - data is missing or indaequate - hence why "scouting" and mapping new routes is a thing (galaxy guide 8 talks about this).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16326
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | This verbatum matches my perception
- with the only addendum of lesser routes not just being data neglect - but just not as many reliable data readings, compared to heavier travelled routes. |
“Data neglect” was a euphemism I chose to emphasize the road map analogy. On a physical road, neglect takes the form of rough surfaces, potholes, etc, but on a data-based route, the neglect takes the form of insufficient data to maintain a clear picture of said route, making it more difficult to astrogate. Theoretically, the BoSS or some other interested power could send out survey probes that do nothing but traverse a given route back and forth repeatedly, increasing the data pool for that route, but that would cost time and credits, and they could only afford to do that for routes that are important in spite of low traffic.
| Quote: | | Now, if I could figure out how much fuel hyper space jumps cost.....but as they say, that is a differnt topic... |
The closest official answer to that is the Fuel Cell rules in 1E Tramp Freighters (removed for 2E). However, this has been discussed previously here. Subsequent posts discuss how the linked post is modified from the RAW, and my own updated version.
Hope that helps.
| Quote: | | I agree with this analogy - with only one caveat - I think we don't need as many hyperspace obstacles - due to the speeds involved and difficlt to chart objects (brown dwarfs, rogue planets, etc.). |
That’s fine. “Littered with obstacles” just means there’s enough out there that spacers know to tread very carefully when going off the known routes.
| Quote: | | But I think some hyperspace ananomolies are fine - could even call them gravity currents or some kind of dark energy (we do not eactly understand the mechanism that holds super clusters together for example). |
I would greatly appreciate your expanded thoughts on this in the Obstacles in Hyperspace topic.
| Quote: | | Do we need rules on all of these? that is up to each gm - to me, just the explanation is adequate - although a gravity wave is a fun idea on that it could make a ship go faster - a tailwind so to speak. |
Indeed. My main interest here is finding a replacement for the “Mynocks” entry on the official Astrogation Mishap Table, while still retaining the same basic effect.
| Quote: | | But as far as just popping out new routes as needed without scouting - I feel that and all the spaces between the routes - data is missing or indaequate - hence why "scouting" and mapping new routes is a thing (galaxy guide 8 talks about this). |
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here, but in general, I think scouting and mapping should be difficult and time consuming, full of dead ends and backtracking, and even when you succeed, your new route is almost never faster or more convenient than a route that already exists.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | But as far as just popping out new routes as needed without scouting - I feel that and all the spaces between the routes - data is missing or indaequate - hence why "scouting" and mapping new routes is a thing (galaxy guide 8 talks about this). |
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here, but in general, I think scouting and mapping should be difficult and time consuming, full of dead ends and backtracking, and even when you succeed, your new route is almost never faster or more convenient than a route that already exists. |
Totally agree.
I was trying to make a counter point to the idea that everything in the galaxy is mapped, and thus any powerful enough nav computer can make any new route anytime.
now - to read the hyperspace hazard and fuel threads......
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16326
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| pakman wrote: | | I was trying to make a counter point to the idea that everything in the galaxy is mapped, and thus any powerful enough nav computer can make any new route anytime. |
Ah. Yes, absolutely. Along similar lines, I plan to introduce grades of Navcomputer, so that instead of the RAW’s version of Yes/Limited/No, Navcomputers will have a D rating between -3D and 5D, which stacks with the crew’s Astrogation skill when calculating jumps. The D value represents an aggregate of both processing power and route data storage. But there will be some routes that aren’t public knowledge, so it won’t matter how good your map database is if you don’t have the actual course data. It would also greatly simplify Instinctive Astrogation rolls, since it could be as simple as adding a character’s Sense dice to Astrogation, in place of the ship’s Navcomputer rating.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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pakman
Commander
Joined: 20 Jul 2021
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | pakman wrote: | | I was trying to make a counter point to the idea that everything in the galaxy is mapped, and thus any powerful enough nav computer can make any new route anytime. |
Ah. Yes, absolutely. Along similar lines, I plan to introduce grades of Navcomputer, so that instead of the RAW’s version of Yes/Limited/No, Navcomputers will have a D rating between -3D and 5D, which stacks with the crew’s Astrogation skill when calculating jumps. The D value represents an aggregate of both processing power and route data storage. But there will be some routes that aren’t public knowledge, so it won’t matter how good your map database is if you don’t have the actual course data. It would also greatly simplify Instinctive Astrogation rolls, since it could be as simple as adding a character’s Sense dice to Astrogation, in place of the ship’s Navcomputer rating. |
I like it!
It gives something else to upgrade - which can lead to new adventures, plot lines etc.
Going to be a while, but ....um...soon (a nebulous term to mean between 1 - 132 months) I will be working on my ship design/upgrade rules - and have to remember this one....
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FVBonura
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 147
Location: Central PA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Tim Zahn introduced us to “etheric rudders”. This brings the ethereal plane into the discussion. Essentially hyperspace is the ethereal plane. The ethereal plane is filled with ectoplasm. This semi viscous substance clearly has rivers and streams running through it. I believe that if a hyper space route is traversed more often it flows more efficiently. Essentially over the millennia of galactic history, hyper space has become the circulatory system in another dimension for the galaxy.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14228
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I thought 'etheric rudders' used something like solar winds, to fly by.
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FVBonura
Lieutenant Commander
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2024 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I thought 'etheric rudders' used something like solar winds, to fly by. |
Tim Zhan was trying to justify X-wings and TIE Fighters flying in vacuum exhibiting flight characteristics similar to atmospheric aircraft as we saw in Star Wars 1977. If memory serves it was mentioned in the 20th anniversary edition of "Heir to the Empire" that has Zahn's comments in the side notes.
In my circle of GMs we have put etherics to great use. Not only are rudders of energy extended into hyperspace to accomplish atmospheric maneuvers in space, it also explains the sublight speed limits in space we experience with the RPG rules-as-written. Lastly etherics explains cooling systems on Star Wars ships that are not equipped with any visible radiators. Excess heat is dumped into hyperspace, a.k.a. ectoplasmic convection.
In my own campaign disruptors are unstable hyperspace weapons which explains the lack of forensic evidence at a crime scene.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Interesting.. Never thought of 'discarding excess heat into hyperspace'.
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FVBonura
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 8:33 am Post subject: |
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I would also bring to light galactic spin. As the deep core spins faster than the outer rim so does the mirror dimension of hyperspace. Clearly gravity wells cause the ectoplasm of hyperspace to move like water around river rocks. This is why we need nav computers because the galactic map is constantly changing in geometry.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16326
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2024 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I always saw “etheric” as more of a misnomer that found its way into common use because of what it did, i.e. gave the appearance of a rudder’s effect in the absence of a medium against which “push”, as it were. My thinking is more that the actual effect is more of an inverse inertial compensator, so instead of negating inertia to protect a ship’s occupants from acceleration effects, it generates inertia laterally in order to “bend” a ship’s course. This gives the appearance of operating within an “ether” medium, without actually being in one.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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FVBonura
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| Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:53 am Post subject: |
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If in doubt lets review or original sources. 
| Quote: | "Star Wars: Heir to the Empire"
The TIE fighters launched, accelerating away from the Chimaera and then leaning hard into etheric rudders to sweep back around it like the spray of some exotic fountain. The invading ships spotted the attackers and shifted vectors—
"Let's get out of here, Artoo," he said, keying the controls back to manual and swinging the X-wing hard around. The etheric rudder whined in protest with the turn—
He broke off as a screech from the X-wing's etheric rudder came faintly over the speaker.
"Now." Leaning hard on his etheric rudder, he peeled off hard to the right.
The main engines flickered a few times and then died, amid short bursts from the auxiliaries. Its drive toward the perimeter fighting faltered, its etheric control surfaces kicking in and then out again, striving to change course in random directions. The big ship floundered almost to a halt. |
You will also note sound is generated by leaning into the ether. Here we also have an explanation for sounds in vacuum.
I'm not going senile, yet... I found Tim's comments.
| Quote: | "The 20th Anniversary Edition: Star Wars: Heir to the Empire"
16. One of the criticisms often thrown at Star Wars is that X-wings fly like atmosphere fighters, banking and turning when the vacuum of space shouldn't allow that. However, the movies posited S-Foils (which at the time I interpreted as "space-foils," as opposed to air-foils), which I also assumed were "pressing" against the universe's vacuum energy (sometimes called zero-point energy). In that same vein, I created the etheric rudder, also interacting with the vacuum energy, to give steering capability.
The term never caught on, though, and has since quietly been dropped. But I think the principle still stands.
-TZ |
Mr. Zahn was being a bit too humble, the term "Etheric Rudder" was not quietly dropped but appears in publications after "Heir to the Empire".
The root word is "Ether" as in "Ethereal", "Ethereal Plane", or "Etheric". Perhaps I am biased coming from a Dungeons & Dragons background but ethereal travel is almost identical to hyperspace travel. The ethereal plane is a parallel dimension that can be occupied partly or fully and travel at speeds free of the limitation of mass is possible. We must also consider many of the Game Designers for WEG also worked for TSR and this familiarity I do not find coincidental but most intentional.
Even from Zahn's "Zero-point Energy" we are dealing with a mysterious "force" in the universe. This is Zahn's attempt to impart Hard Science Fiction to a franchise a bit lacking in such hardness. Thoughts???
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