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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | That sounds needlessly overcomplicated.
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With all the add-on rules you've generated, i am surprised you think having a 'speed' rating for missiles, would be needlessly overcomplicated. |
That's because I tried it out and found out that it was. The choice was left to either treat them as vehicles trying to ram other ships or treat them as weapons that could attack more than once, and the latter offered the best way to represent missile combat without needlessly delaying the pace of a combat round. Just treat it like any other attack, with a limited supply of ammo making up for the follow-up attack capability.
Sometimes you have to put a rule in writing to realize there is a better, simpler way to do it.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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So, this is starting to firm up. I'm thinking of splitting Torpedoes off from Missiles by specifying that a Torpedo is a specific class of weapon designed specifically to penetrate shields. It does this by traveling at relatively low velocities, and being surrounded by an encasing field of disruptive energy that both negates shields (either a portion of, or ignores them completely, I haven't decided which) and provides added protection against point-defense fire. In a lot of ways, torpedoes would be the starfighter equivalent of a Wookiee bowcaster...
What I'm wondering at this point is, should I simply revert to the older WEG rules and simply say that Torpedoes ignore all shields, or take a more moderate approach and say that torpedoes negate a portion of shield protection? I'm leaning more towards the latter, as it would make sense that a field generated around a starfighter-grade torpedo shouldn't be able to simply ignore, say, the Death Star-Scale shield of a planetary shield generator.
Also, if I go with the latter option, what would be an appropriate level? At the moment, I'm thinking of allowing Torpedoes to ignore up to 3D of Shields, and a Body of 4D to resist being shot down.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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KageRyu
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
What I'm wondering at this point is, should I simply revert to the older WEG rules and simply say that Torpedoes ignore all shields... |
I am asking as I am unfamiliar with such a rule, do you happen to have a Book/Page Link?
The closest I have read was the descriptions in the Sourcebook Where it states Torpedoes and Missiles ignore Ray shields, commonly used by non-military vessels and in planetary defense, but that full particle shielding which is the common types of combat and military shield would stop them. It also mentioned that they were preferred for planetary and ground attack because the fighters could often get bellow the shields and deliver them at high speed with precision accuracy.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | the moment, I'm thinking of allowing Torpedoes to ignore up to 3D of Shields, and a Body of 4D to resist being shot down. |
I would probably not assign them a BODY at all, simply a very high difficulty to hit. Again, based on the passages from the sourcebook where it describes the difficulty in point defenses having trouble hitting them being the bigger issue. If I had to use a Body code, say for inter-scale fire (like someone with a repeater trying to shoot down a torpedo...) I would likely use 2D (I am not sure of the page but fairly certain in one of the sections of the rule book it describes 2D as being the general die code of any/all unmarked equipment to determine damage or breakage...might have been in a supplement or a non-SW D6 book though).
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Darklighter79
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Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: |
I am asking as I am unfamiliar with such a rule, do you happen to have a Book/Page Link? |
Page 127 of Revised and Expanded Sourcebook under Ion Weapons entry.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Darklighter79 wrote: | | KageRyu wrote: |
I am asking as I am unfamiliar with such a rule, do you happen to have a Book/Page Link? |
Page 127 of Revised and Expanded Sourcebook under Ion Weapons entry. |
I see no mention there of them ignoring shields at all.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: |
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In the first edition core rules it says:
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Some ships carry proton torpedoes or concussion missiles. They work like other ship weapons except that:
- They can only be used at short range.
- They are designed for use against slow-moving targets.
When torpedoes or missiles are fired at an enemy ship, roll the enemy ship's speed dice and add the number rolled to the fire difficulty. This use of speed is not considered a "skill use," and does not penalize the pilot in any way.
-They are completely dissipated by shields. If the enemy ship successfully uses shields against the attack, the torpedo or missile attack has no effect. |
Page 63-64
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | I am asking as I am unfamiliar with such a rule, do you happen to have a Book/Page Link?
The closest I have read was the descriptions in the Sourcebook Where it states Torpedoes and Missiles ignore Ray shields, commonly used by non-military vessels and in planetary defense, but that full particle shielding which is the common types of combat and military shield would stop them. It also mentioned that they were preferred for planetary and ground attack because the fighters could often get bellow the shields and deliver them at high speed with precision accuracy. |
I don't. In fact, this rule may not actually exist. I do recall at least one GM who played it this way (At the time, I was too new to the system to question it). However, there is precedent in other systems; in Battlefleet Gothic, anti-ship torpedoes move slowly and are specifically designed to ignore the void shields on most capital ships (although they can be engaged by point defense turrets).
And ultimately, our understanding of Torpedoes and Missiles is heavily dependent on how WEG chose to define the two. Once you start examining alternate possibilities, a lot of what we "know" about proton torpedoes goes right out the window. It has always bothered me that there wasn't a clear reason why we needed both torpedoes and missiles in the game, beyond "well, that's what they're called in the movie..."
| Quote: | | I would probably not assign them a BODY at all, simply a very high difficulty to hit. Again, based on the passages from the sourcebook where it describes the difficulty in point defenses having trouble hitting them being the bigger issue. If I had to use a Body code, say for inter-scale fire (like someone with a repeater trying to shoot down a torpedo...) I would likely use 2D (I am not sure of the page but fairly certain in one of the sections of the rule book it describes 2D as being the general die code of any/all unmarked equipment to determine damage or breakage...might have been in a supplement or a non-SW D6 book though). |
I gave all missiles and torpedoes a Body of 1D (along with making them Heroic / Very Difficult targets for point defense weapons), based on the Fire Arc Artillery Cannon in Rules of Engagement.
What I'm picturing for torpedoes is that they are encased in an energy sheath that both disrupts shields and protects the torpedo from point defense fire. While what your suggesting would certainly represent how hard it is to kill a torpedo, I don't feel it represents it in the right way. If something is relatively easy to hit (compared to missiles, at least), but hard to damage, this is best represented by a low Gunnery Difficulty but a high Body rating. Basically, I gave a 1D Body Torpedo a 3D negation against shields and the same 3D boost to soak any damage.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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KageRyu
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Location: Lost in the cracks
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: |
in Battlefleet Gothic, anti-ship torpedoes move slowly and are specifically designed to ignore the void shields on most capital ships (although they can be engaged by point defense turrets). |
I played a lot of the BFG edition that came out at the turn of the millennium, but as I remember Shields did work against torpedos...but it has admittedly been longer since I played that than SW so my recollection might be fuzzy. I remember Blast markers reduced shield strength, and specifically Bombers ignored shields, but unless they had numbers had low odds of causing significant damage (I ran a very carrier heavy Chaos Fleet for a while). I even made up house rules for ship points calculation for ne designs (tested against existing ships with a +/-10% MOE) and had made some conversion rules of some SW ships to run some large space battles using the Micro Machines ships. I was very sad when they cancelled the game - especially as I didn't get all the minis I wanted.
| Quote: | | I gave all missiles and torpedoes a Body of 1D (along with making them Heroic / Very Difficult targets for point defense weapons), based on the Fire Arc Artillery Cannon in Rules of Engagement. |
Sounds fair.
How about as an Idea to add Variety between the types:
Torpedoes - Ignore Shields, Slow Moving and only useful against large or slow Moving targets as described in the book. With the enhancements you describe, this would be as seen fired by the X-Wings in Star Wars, Rogue One, and The Force Awakens, or by the Y-Wings in several episodes of The Clone Wars Cartoons.
Missiles - Useful against fast moving targets (no penalty), may or may not have an endurance code for tracking, stopped by shields. These could be a number of variations that could replicate effects as seen in the opening of Revenge of the Sith, or Attack of the Clones. Perhaps a missile chart could even be made with some various ordinance types - say for each 1D of damage left off you could add 1D endurance or 1D Internal Fire Skill for tracking?
I also believe I had seen somewhere Concussion Missiles had a higher damage code than Torpedoes, but would need to find this reference again.
Bombs - Not sure how to fit Bombs in...the only clear depiction of bombs in any of the movies I saw was in TLJ, and there are some problems in that depiction. Traditionally Bombs rely on gravity and are just dropped over the target. The Bombs in the film appear to function just this way, but in space, and appear to be the size of thermal detonators (?) - it was hard to tell as the person wasn't standing right next to one, but they were small, but in very large numbers. Perhaps, a passive magnetic field in the bombs draws them toward ships when "dropped" (I suppose I could accept that - but speculating here) - Or perhaps that Dreadnought was so large it had a gravity well(?) - or...exactly how far beyond a vessel does it's artificial gravity envelope stretch? The big advantage to real bombs is for the same weight of a missile you get more boom because no guidance or engine, just explosives.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | I played a lot of the BFG edition that came out at the turn of the millennium, but as I remember Shields did work against torpedoes...but it has admittedly been longer since I played that than SW so my recollection might be fuzzy. |
I double checked to make sure, and the reference is in the BFG Rulebook, pg. 28 (Types of Ordnance), under the Torpedo Rules.Torpedoes will pass through shields before they impact, so ignore any shields when applying damage.
| Quote: | | I remember Blast markers reduced shield strength, and specifically Bombers ignored shields, but unless they had numbers had low odds of causing significant damage |
I also checked the Attack Craft section in the BFG Rulebook, and I couldn't find any reference to bombers ignoring shields. There was an alternate rule (which may have been official) for Heavy Bombers that launched torpedoes, but no mention of regular bombers having the same effect.
| Quote: | | I was very sad when they cancelled the game - especially as I didn't get all the minis I wanted. |
While I haven't done any stat work on it, I have conceptually used the WH40K races (with a little adjustment) to populate the Unknown Regions. The biggest change was bringing back Squats and giving them all the Imperium equipment (I figure the SWU already has one galaxy-spanning, human-centric, xenophobic, totalitarian government), but there are others as well.
| Quote: | | Torpedoes - Ignore Shields |
My only quibble here is that I think there should be a limit on how much Shields they ignore. If there are multiple grades of proton torpedo (based on scale), then a Starfighter-Scale one should not be able to ignore shields equally as well as a Capital-Scale one, as the protective energy shield of the latter would be much stronger. That's why I suggested only that it ignore 3D of Shields, which, based on its Scale and the Strength of the opposing Shields, will be much more representative of the varying power levels of the energy casing.
Of course, Torpedoes in general would refer to the warhead delivery system that allows them to penetrate shields, so there would also be room for Ion Torpedoes, Concussion Torpedoes, and so on and so forth simply by mating a different warhead to the Torpedo body.
| Quote: | | Missiles - Useful against fast moving targets (no penalty), may or may not have an endurance code for tracking, stopped by shields. These could be a number of variations that could replicate effects as seen in the opening of Revenge of the Sith, or Attack of the Clones. |
I've already done a lot of work on this on my Advanced Starfighter Combat System, but with Proton Torpedoes filling most of the heavier roles. This would simply be folded into a broader list of Missile Types, with different degrees of duration, range, seeker intelligence, and so on and so forth.
| Quote: | | I also believe I had seen somewhere Concussion Missiles had a higher damage code than Torpedoes, but would need to find this reference again. |
The only reference I know of would be Capital Ship Concussion Missiles.
| Quote: | | Bombs - Not sure how to fit Bombs in...the only clear depiction of bombs in any of the movies I saw was in TLJ, and there are some problems in that depiction. |
These are not the bombs you are looking for. Move along.
| Quote: | | Traditionally Bombs rely on gravity and are just dropped over the target. |
There are two ways to do it. The first is the traditional gravity bomb, which should be utilized in atmosphere, or potentially used in space if the bomb launcher has some sort of accelerator to give the bombs a kinetic boost of some kind. This was applied after the fact for the bombers in TLJ by having the bomb bay equipped with EM accelerators to propel the bombs out of the bay, and applied something similar to the Y-Wing (and had my idea somewhat vindicated by the Y-Wings dropping bombs in space during the battle of Scariff).
The other is the space bomb from the TIE Fighter game, which launches forward like missiles and proton torpedoes, but has no drive, so it just glides through space at whatever speed it was launched at.
I've got rules for both...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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MrNexx
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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I know it's not supported by the game, but my inclination would be to say that "torpedoes" do damage above the scale of the launching craft, "missiles" do damage on the launching scale of the craft, and "rockets" function under the launching scale.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| MrNexx wrote: | | I know it's not supported by the game, but my inclination would be to say that "torpedoes" do damage above the scale of the launching craft, "missiles" do damage on the launching scale of the craft, and "rockets" function under the launching scale. |
That's more a question of juggling Damage and Fire Control values than any real difference in design. Technically, by the RAW, both missiles and torpedoes inflict damage against higher scales; factor in the 6D Scale modifier and they do 2D and 3D capital-scale damage, respectively.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Years ago I made up rules that separated the two weapon groups. It's on a comp somewhere.
IIRC Missiles were direct fire weapons using skill + FC to hit as per the rules. They accelerated to their maximum range in a single round striking their target. Torpedoes were slower and heavier and essentially fast small 'ships' in their own way with a simplified acceleration system, moving toward its target for a certain number of rounds before running out of fuel. You fired by getting a target lock (easier than hitting with a missile) and firing the torpedo. When/if it reached the target the torpedo had its own 'skill' used to hit the target.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Years ago I made up rules that separated the two weapon groups. It's on a comp somewhere.
IIRC Missiles were direct fire weapons using skill + FC to hit as per the rules. They accelerated to their maximum range in a single round striking their target. Torpedoes were slower and heavier and essentially fast small 'ships' in their own way with a simplified acceleration system, moving toward its target for a certain number of rounds before running out of fuel. You fired by getting a target lock (easier than hitting with a missile) and firing the torpedo. When/if it reached the target the torpedo had its own 'skill' used to hit the target. |
It's an interesting idea, and I had actually considered something similar for a stand-off attack missile, where the missile is launched into a target area where it goes active and acquires its own target without any input from the shooter.
The thing is, though, it doesn't really address to my satisfaction why a torpedo would be necessary to hit the exhaust port on the Death Star. The only thing that comes to mind would be that, when the torpedo goes active and tries to acquire its target, it receives a Gunnery bonus based on how accurately the shooter made the initial torpedo shot. I've been using the 3=1 variant of the Accuracy Damage rules from RoE, so maybe the torpedo gets a +1 to accuracy for every 3 points by which the shooter beat the base Difficulty on his Gunnery roll?
Of course, this gets into why a Jedi would need to shut off his targeting computer, when the system suggests he should be able to stack any Force-based bonuses with Fire Control...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | The speed portion is more for "Can they catch that ship going all out". |
That sounds needlessly overcomplicated. Far simpler to just assume that a missile will always be faster than the fighter is chasing, then base the ability to evade said missile on the skill of the pilot, the maneuverability of the craft and whatever countermeasures the ship can deploy. In the instance of a long tail chase (ala Obi-wan in AotC), I would consider that like so:10-20 = Weapon is out of position, but still in range. May not attack its target next round, but can attack normally in the round after next. It's clear that the missile was going to catch Obi-wan eventually, so he improvised a chaff decoy. |
But which ship's all out, would it be faster than? looking in the complete starship's guide, we've got all sorts of speeds. Some as low as SU of 6, while some are a LOT higher. And based on the Xwing vs Tie game, an A-wing going all out, can easily outrun any of the missiles. So can a defender, or tie advanced (the Tie/AD, not vader's one).
The only ones from that game that couldn't was the b/y/x wings, and the regular tie fighters, interceptors or bombers..
So basing it on THAT The advance (Tie advance X1, Vader's ship) has a SU of 10, the interceptor 11, so those are too slow.
We've got the advanced (Tie/AD) at 15 su, 17Su for the defender, and A-wing SU 12. So to ME, that seems to show missiles should be at 11 for their speed...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Because, as I said above, all of that complexity only ends up delaying a combat round while the GM calculates angles, SUs moved, etc, for each missile in flight, in addition to the ships involved. Realism is fine so long as it doesn't interfere with pacing and excitement. I agree the system isn't perfect, but it's ultimately simpler from a narrative perspective to treat missiles as weapons, not tiny starships.
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